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jtesdall (5/12/2008)
[quote]
Krill diets will lead to a nutritional deficiency which causes lock jaw - the inability to open/shut mouth and masticate. This disease process develops over time and when signs appear, it is often too late and the fish will starve to death.
Porcupine puffers are diodons - two fused dental plates. Due to their mouth anatomy, Diodons will not have the problem.
Puffer Queen, Is the above a typo or am I misunderstanding? This seems to say that Porcupine Puffers do not suffer from lock jaw. I have read many posts today where you say that feeding only Krill will lead to deficiencies that end in death in all puffers including other aggressives like lionfish. So is the lock Jaw just another symptom in some species?No they can get nutritional induced lockjaw. They do NOT suffer from overgrowth of the teeth like the tetradons - arothrons.
My Porcupine of about 8 Months stopped eating last week. He swims and does all of the same things people report and you tell us about when feeding a diet of Krill. Unfortunately I did not do enough research and fed 100% Dried Krill thinking it was a great diet and didn't worry when he would eat nothing else. I now understand the "fish crack" analogy.
I am following your advice and added B12 found in some Coral additive I had around and today I will get a vitamin supplement with B12. A couple other questions:
After a week of not eating, seeing as the he has been on a diet of 100% Krill, are many surviving to begin eating again?
What about feeding Krill soaked in vitamin supplement and Selcon? I have a Lion Fish that is on 100% Krill as well.
Should the B12 and other vitamins just be added to the water? Does he get enough to help?
I am trying to feed Ghost Shrimp and adding B12 and other Vitamins, any other advice? At this point - no more krill. How long have you had the lion? How big are the puffer and the lion? Do try the B12, ghost shrimp. Might consider tube feeding if the puffer does not start eating again. There has been one reported successful tube feeding of a lionfish that was reported to have lockjaw. Unfortunately by the time signs/symptoms of the nutritional deficiency start, damage may be irreversible - which is usually the unfortunate outcome. If the puffer does not make it or it comes to a point where you are considering euthanasia, PLEASE let me know as I am involved with some official research with Dr Lewbart at NCSU. We are hoping to find the official cause and treatment options if any.
Kelly
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Hi Kelly,
Thank you very much for your reply.
I have had the Puffer and Lion for about 8 months. I got them both small and the Puffer is now about 6 inches and the Lion is about 8-10 inches. Up until all the activity of trying to treat Puffy the Lion was eating great although only Krill. Now the Lion has stopped for three days (except for a few ghost shrimp) and I assume it is because of the activity and chasing him away from the food I was trying to feed puffy.
I have been adding Selcon to the water at 1 ml+ per 50 gallons nightly. I have also been adding a couple of capfuls of Seachems Entice although I am thinking that is a waste. I tried gut feeding ghost shrimp with selcon and good flake food and have added 11 to the tank over the past three days but only the Lion ate them that I saw. Some got behind the rocks and I don't know what happened to them.
I have been trying to feed Krill and Squid soaked in Selcon to the puffer with a feeding stick. I have gotten him to show interest and swallow only 1/2 Krill at this point. I can stick the Krill in his mouth with the feeding stick fairly easily without him getting too upset. Finally it ticks him off and he bites and one time swallowed. He has never "puffed".
I cannot see stopping Krill altogether "now" as it took me a month to get my lionfish eating dried Krill from live minnows. It seems feeding Krill soaked in Selcon would a good way to entice to them both to eat and then go away from it. Please explain why to stop altogether now?? It seems like a certain plan of death to me. Although I could go back to live for the Lion until I can get him switched over to other seafood. We did actually get the lion to eat a green bean once trying to feed it to puffy. So may it may not be as hard this time.
I am planning on speaking to my Father in law tonight about his thoughts. He is a 70+ year old Vet that has had a practice for over 30 years. Is there any evidence this might be a blockage issue or other indication that I could tell him. He has saved several of our animals with non-traditional therapies so he may have an idea here.
I am more than willing to work with you and NCSU. My problem will be figuring out when to pull the trigger. He is still swimming around and is interested in us. He has not lost much weight yet either.
On the issue of Euthanasia I have been researching and there seems to be a debate. I have always thought that freezing was the best with fish. If I get to this point what are specific opinions and thoughts on this.
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| Before NCSU took interest in this problem, I necropsied several of these fish. None of them showed any evidence of blockage. As far as euthanasia, if you get to that point - I would suggest sending the fish live to NCSU so they can draw lab work and then euthanize for further testing. A 'fresh' specimen is always most helpful. Please let me know so I can facilitate this. The problem is the krill is nutritionally deficient. Selcon is vitamin C and HUFA - it doesn't provide the necessary nutrition. It is the krill that is the common factor this condition. Feeding krill will not fix the problem and at this point, a varied diet is needed for any chance of reversal. Is tube feeding an option??
Kelly
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The Selcon label also says B Complex and B12 so I am assuming this is a good source of the needed B12 correct? Is VitaChem better, none of the LFS have it?
Yes, I can tube feed although I am extremely worried about the stress caused by moving him to a quarantine and sedating. At this point I am willing to try anything and feel I have the skills to learn and accomplish this. Please advise on how to proceed I have read other threads you where you have written on this topic. It seems like many have encountered this condition, have any puffer owners been successful with tube feeding??
Has NCSU determined anything in the 6+ months they have been studying this?
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| Unfortunately in the 6 months, they have received only ONE lionfish despite many hobbyist owned puffer deaths with lockjaw symptoms.....so no conclusions can be made at this point. They need more fish in order to do adequate/thorough/reliable research. I have tube fed many puffers, sharks, seahorses, rabbitfish and squirrelfish for reasons other than lockjaw.
Kelly
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jtesdall (5/15/2008)
The Selcon label also says B Complex and B12 so I am assuming this is a good source of the needed B12 correct? Is VitaChem better, none of the LFS have it?Vitamin B is a water soluble vitamin - not stored in the body. The dose in the liquid vitamins is a good supplement but if you are trying to use B12 to stimulate the appetite - a much larger dose is needed. Crushing a tablet and dissolving it is a more cost effective alternative.
Kelly
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Am I OK using Selcon for B12? Is VitaChem better?
Any pointers or threads available for step by step tube feeding?
Thank you very much Kelly. I will talk to my wife about sending our puffer to NCSU. I would would imagine this would be quite expensive for overnight so that is a consideration. But we will fight hard first before opting for this.
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Puffer Queen (5/15/2008)
[quote]jtesdall (5/15/2008)
The Selcon label also says B Complex and B12 so I am assuming this is a good source of the needed B12 correct? Is VitaChem better, none of the LFS have it?
Vitamin B is a water soluble vitamin - not stored in the body. The dose in the liquid vitamins is a good supplement but if you are trying to use B12 to stimulate the appetite - a much larger dose is needed. Crushing a tablet and dissolving it is a more cost effective alternative.
[/quote]
So it OK to buy B12 at the pharmacy to crush and add to the water? At what dose?? I will get some today?
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| You can buy them at any health food story, grocery store or Target, Walmart, KMart, etc. I would recommend giving it via bath instead of adding it to the entire tank - more concentrated delivery plus the stability in saltwater tank is limited. I would probably add 500 -- 1000mcg in a couple gallons and well aerate. I would bath for an hour. Best of luck. Keep us updated.
Kelly
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Thanks agin Kelly,
Should I buy B Complex or just B12?
Any pointers or threads available for step by step (or close) tube feeding?
Joel
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