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| I have a tissue recession problem with my sps and some lps, and havent been able to nail it down so I'm wondering what others experiences are. Expanding foam background. Some info on my tank system. 4 years ago started a 90g mixed reef display with DSB. 2 years ago added 100g rubbermaid stock tank, tall Lifereef skimmer, 100g long seagrass tank with DSB, and a few other smaller have come and gone in this time, like frag tank, 30 breeder tank with clowns and anemone, and 25g soft coral display. In November 2007 I started my 180 with expanding foam background, I used black pond foam from aquatic ecosytems, and a small amount of yellow great stuff to fill some of the gaps. It has a shallow sand bed, and about 150lbs or so of LR, all mature rock that I had gotten from local reefers and some which I had stockpiled in the months leading up to the tank build, all the rock was fully cured before adding. It has a SSB, 3 250 watt MH fixtures, bulbs are 2 XM20k( came with the tank bought used and are of unknown age), and 1 Ushio 14k ( about a year old ) so I'm definately ready for new bulbs, and is connected into the existing mature system. Flow is provided by a Koralia #4, and a Seio 2600. Return is a sedra 1200 through a SCWD. Dosing is provided with a Ca reactor, Kalk reactor, controlled with ACIII, Magnesium is dosed with Randy's 2 part. Reef salt is MEI Crystal Seas bioassay. Parameters: all tested with Salifert kits Ca 370
Alk 10.6 dkh
Mg 1260
NO3 25 ppm ( a little high I know but I dont think is responsible? )
PO4 ? no test kit, but virtually no high phosphate driven nuisance algae Recently for a period of 3 weeks I was doing weekly water changes of about 100g's per week, things did seem to improve but not tremendously and as soon as water changes amounts were dropped back a bit things were back to the normal slow tissue recession, but with good polyp extension. Tissue isnt receding in any particular way. Its from the base, tips and actually anywhere in between. I have used GAC, and Phosgaurd alternatively recently hoping for some improvement. I've never had a problem quite like this which has persisted and with no obvious reason. I've searched up expanding foam and cant find any particular mysterious tissue recession discussions. So if I'm the only one then the problem must be something else perhaps in the details I've provided. Thanks for any assistance
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________ - David -
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| Exactly what type of tissue resession are you referring to? You would need to post a picture showing the normal vs. tissue loss areas. From your discussion, the first thing that I noticed is that this is a very new tank set up. Also, there is a lot of lighting over that tank. How far above the water line is the lighting and what is the photoperiod? I would also be very concerned about the very high NO3 levels. IMO, I would say that the PO4 levels are also elevated and you really need to check that parameter. This may be a nutrient problem because you mentioned that doing large water changes actually helped somewhat. However, not knowing other things like water flow, etc... would make it almost impossible to determine what is happening in your tank. Steve
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I'll have to get some pics of the effected corals, but the problem is confined mostly to sps, Acropora, Montipora, Seriatopora, Pocillopora. The recession primarily started at the tips but is not confined to the tips, there is also tissue loss starting in various places along the branches. The tank is new but is connected into 300 gallons of mature tanks, and sump with DSB's. Could the newness still be an issue? Lighting is 3 -250 watt MH over a 180g tank, bulbs are fairly low PAR bulbs according to bulb comparison charts. I was actually thinking of changing the bulbs and putting in XM 10k's and adding actinic supplementation. I am concerned about the Nitrates and have been trying to get them down. Unfortunately I'm in the process of expanding my fish room in the basement, and at the moment dont have room for my refugium. Nitrates were always low when my fuge was running. My next step is to get a test kit for PO4, I've never had a phosphate problem so just havent invested in one, when I did have one phosphates were never detectable. At what point, if there is one which can be chosen do Nitrates become a problem as far tissue recession is concerned?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________- David -
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I'd like to see photos, too. I have no idea about Great Stuff and seawater but wouldn't rule that out. I'm confused on the black pond foam part. Can you provide a link? What is the description of the 90g tank here for? Is it background and you used all the livestock in this new 180?
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Eric Borneman
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| The description of the 90 is just to help describe the age of the system that 180 is connected with in general. Trying to help rule out new tank syndrome. The 180 is only several months old, but the supporting tanks are in excess of 2 years old, and in the case of the 90, 4 years old. I allowed the 180 several weeks to cycle just in case there was a small cycle before I connected it into the existing system and adding any livestock. The majority of the livestock and LR added were pieces I had been collecting in the months prior to the new tank in anticipation. Everything was doing well for about a month or so. I was seeing good growth and all was well. Then things started to go down hill. The tissue recession started primarily at the tips of the Acros, but is also effecting other areas. Plating montipora started with recession in the middle even while the growing edge continued to grow with polyp extension. I started doing doing weekly 100g water changes and the problem seemed to begin to reverse so I cut back on the water changes and shortly after the problems came back. So now I'm back to changing 100g a week which doesnt seem right and is going to get very costly. I also started running GAC and now Phosguard just in case. I'm gonna work on some pics today. Here's a link to the foam. http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11715/cid/3029
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| Hi David: Reading the info about the foam does not indicate that it would be the problem here. Although we do not know what the chemical composition is, I suspect that if you let it cure long enough it would not cause any problems. I would recommend not doing that large of a water change but rather cut back to 10 to 15% max. We need to know more about the tank chemistry parameters, lighting, water flow, other biological hookups, etc.. in order to be able to help out. Obviously, the pictures would be very helpful. Hang in there............... Steve
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I am very unsure on the stability of the polyurethane foams in seawater and with UV exposure. Did you read or hear somewhere that others have used this material long term in displays with invertebrates/corals without problems?
Also, is there a list of "ingredients" on the black foam bottle?
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I wrote to Mitch Carl at the Henry Doorly Zoo, aquarist extraordinaire, about these foams and what is used for 3-D in seawater displays at public aquariums. He responded
"Most of the ones that I've seen are fiberglass or concrete inserts. We do make some that use a plumbers foam (similar to Great Stuff), which is then carved and then a two part epoxy is put over that (like a bondo type material), then that is painted w/ a water based epoxy paint. I don't know if anyone uses that type for saltwater tanks though. We just use it for frogs and freshwater. Most that I know use the fiberglass for saltwater."
Not really sure. I've only seen one tank in Minnesota that used that stuff. He used a lot of it to make rockwork throughout the tank. It was a big tank (~2000gal?) and everything looked great in there. Might have something to do w/ what they coat it w/ on whether or not it starts to break down.
I did a little poking around, and it seems that there are specific marine antifoulants and marine applicable polyurethane foams, and a lot of articles on breakdown of polyurethanes in seawater, but this is in ocean water with a lot of dilution and we don't know the composition of the various products and how they differ.
Given what I know of your substantial abilities as a reefkeeper/breeder and the situation involved (seawater, ultraviolet, and uk foams) I am leaning towards the likelihood of them being the cause of your issue.
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| my 2 cents... when i was building plywood tanks,did a lot of reading up on foam backgrounds as well (i have no knowledge of this specifically) but it was recommended to always coat it with a water based epoxy. I used the stuff from aqautic eco (sweetwater i think) that is potable meaning you could safely use it and be safe to hold food/liquids for people. The amount of chemicals in the foam and how long it can take just concrete to cure would make me concerned of a leaching problem over time.
Peace...
Dan
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Over time I've been able to make some observations of the foam backround, perhaps these help point to it being the problem or not. Coraline algae loves it, in only 3 months it is completely covered with pink and deep red coraline. Also bubble algae really seems to like it. It is becoming covered in BA. A few years ago I had a serious bubble algae problem and it was almost entirely confined to some homemade rock which I have since removed from my system. There is virtually no bubble algae on the LR in this tank it is almost 100% confined to the background. Lastly there were alot of microbubbles all over the background now with the coraline there are less microbubbles. I think the micro bubbles are primarily a result of a brown diatom algae film growing on the background. The brown algae is nearly invisible to the naked eye but it is there.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________- David -
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