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Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 2/13/2008 6:37:19 AM
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| I have been reading through your "old" posts on CLs and CLMs, and I am pretty sure that I want to remove my powerheads and install a closed loop. The problem is, drilling the tank is not an option, so I will have to plumb the Loop over the top of the tank and down a foot or two to the pump. Here's where my stubborn nature complicates things. I want to use a Sequence pump (snapper) because it has 2400gph at a mere 98w of usage, but I found an RC thread where you emphatically stated that the sequence (a dart in this case) would not work w/ an over the back feed. The reasons cited where: 1. power outages 2. pump starvation - cavitation Now, I'm pretty sure your answer hasn't/won't change, but for some reason, I always need to be told twice before it sticks... so here goes. Will the sequence snapper, like the dart, not work in my situation if: 1. I install a check valve after the outlet so that if a powerfailure takes place the clm can't syphon completely out and starve the pump... 2. I use an oversized pipe (2" in this case) on the inlet to feed the pump and if that won't work, what if I was able to install a small, sealed resovoir right before the intake on the snapper? 3. I install the sequence behind the tank and about 2' below the top of the tank and use 2x 45d elbows instead of 1 90d elbow to make my turns? Okay, ultimately, I probably need to bite the bullet and get a Mag Drive or other submersible pump, but I thought I'd ask... just ask as other people have plumbed sequence pumps this way, but I am always a little leary of these personal testimonies... I guess that I simply don't like the idea of using a Mag 18 and seeing a significant drop off of GPH and a significant increase of watts used. And in case you are wondering, I am going w/ the CL because I want to get powerheads out of the tank for safety reasons (seals leaking, stray voltage, no grounding plug), specifically because the tank is an anenome only tank and they do tend to travel after cloning, and I'd like to avoid the highly concentrated intakes that PH's create. Additionally, they are somewhat of an eye sore... thanks for reading, Matt
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Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 7/13/2008 7:05:46 PM
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| a snapper in a closed loop will work fine over the top. i have used it in this manner on two of my tanks for about 6 months now. the only trick was i filled up the piping with my salt water supply hose when i was filling the tank, this allowed enough water for the pump to prime itself and purge all the air our of the piping that remained. i have no clue as to why a snapper that is in a closed loop would cavitate unless air got into the system some how. once the piping is full of water, and if the pump's suction side is never above the water line this should never happen. during a power outage nothing will happen to you tank or the plumbing. it will remain full and return to normal operation when power is restored. it will not drain your tank, as long as its plumbed in normal closed loop style. no check valves one way valve are necessary. a snapper and dart both have 2" suction side piping - this is standard and not oversized. the output is 1.5" for both. ive read that when a pump is installed in closed loop manner that the only restriction to flow is friction of the piping, so a 90 degree will not affect the pumps output as much as a pump that is returning water from a sump. its my personal opionion, mag drives are great work horses, but comparied to a snapper anything over a model 9.5 is inefficent. also i dont care to add the excess heat directly to the aquarium water either. i had a rio submersable pump that shocked me and maxijet power heads. i too dont like power in the water either. sequence all the way for me!! also iwakiis and panworlds and other pumps can be used in place of the sequence pump. i dont like mag drives run external, ime the pump ran at 120 degrees and produced massive salt creep. i used teflon tape, if you do this i would try either silicone or telfon paste, as ive used teflon tape on sequence and they leak too. teflon paste = no leaks. ive only read about using silicone instead of the paste. pictures next
___________________________________________________________________ I think I lost 5000 brain cells from watching Ricky Bobby. "Shake and bake baby" 180 - 40 - 180
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Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 7/13/2008 7:05:46 PM
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| i also had to smear silicone all over the face plate of the mag drive to make it stop leaking. i dont know if this is just one pump or for all, it was a model 7. the flow was redicliously low too. the benefit from running a high head pump over a sequence pump is that you can use educators. they multiply the pumps flow by 5 times if i recall correctly. do some research and use the pump that best suits you for your particular situation/needs, not basied on what i say or someone else says. also use ball valves and unions or unioned ball valves on the suction side and discharge side at the pump. this will prevent a massive amount of water from flooding your house. i can pick up my piping and pump and walk outside with my it if i need to work on it, and i also could not justify the cost other than having unions at the pumps, i guess its a case of do as i say not as i do. im cheap.
___________________________________________________________________ I think I lost 5000 brain cells from watching Ricky Bobby. "Shake and bake baby" 180 - 40 - 180
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| categorically... never install flood-feed pumps in prime-feed applications. Else you will watch that pump fail in a fraction of its potential lifespan. It is a veryt poor way to (mis)plumb a piece of equipment that is not designed for that purpose. Its also an invitation for a catastrophic failure (livestock losses) in time. Foolish IMO. Dont take my word for it... please do ask the mfg/techs
. Anthony Calfo
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Group: Forum Members
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anthony, thanks for the insite, i figured the falling motion would provide the suction pull for incomming water. seems as though i cant do anythign right...... especially latly.
___________________________________________________________________I think I lost 5000 brain cells from watching Ricky Bobby. "Shake and bake baby" 180 - 40 - 180
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no worries mate... this is a common misapplication. A lot of folks would love to have a drilled through-wall pump but they don't want to dismantle/drain the tank to drill it. So they compromise by going over the top. But they use equipment that was never designed for the purpose (most all aquarium pumps require flood feeding... "gravity" flow into the housing). So what happens is that they get a year or two (even three) out of the misplumbed pump (instead of 5-10 years) and if they are really lucky, they avoid a priming failure that harms or kills livestock. The solution is to buy a pump that is self-priming... but most folks will not spend that kind of money (and if their luck does not hold out, they kill more precious critters than it would have cost for the proper pump or just the one afternoon to drain, drill and then refill a tank).
.Anthony Calfo
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Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 2/13/2008 6:37:19 AM
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| Anthony, Thanks for the reply. How plausible is it to drain the tank and drill it? Would I need to remove all the rock work and sand, etc., or could I leave the tank 1/3 full and drill above? I did contact the manufacturer and they indicated that an over-the-back application was possible if I used a check-valve. I also looked at the Sequence installation manual for the Dart/Snapper, and it shows how to install the pump so that it draws water into itself. In the manual the pump is actually installed above the water level of its source, however, the manual also indicates that a resivoire (sp?!?) feed is the optimal way to run the pump. Anyway, back to drilling the tank, I know most glass drilling bits need water to prevent cracking, so I will probably need the tank off the stand and all livestock, rockwork, sand, etc. removed...  thanks, Matt
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| correct... a reservoir/flooding feed is always best (water naturally flows back into the pump housing and does not require priming). As for drilling... the tank needs to be bone dry empty my friend. It will be a long afternoon, but no biggie... just laborious (and a chance to rescue lost frags, restack rocks better than before, etc)
. Anthony Calfo
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