Before I go into my problem, I'd like to say thats it's really great to have a place to go where there are very knowledgable people with alot of experience. There are other sites to go, but after reading this site for some time, this site has to be the best. First time posting by the way, too bad under these circumstances.

     The problem: Just bought a 3" Porcupine puffer. After he got home noticed some white spots on him, looks like ICK, but just a few spots. Nothing too horrible looking. Put him in a 10 gal quarentine tank with good water hoping good water might just let him fight off the ick. He was acting fine for the first few days. I checked the water 2 days later and needs to have a water change. So I change the water accordingly. Now I am changing his water daily and the water checks out perfect, however he devoloped a somewhat cloudy eye ( 1 eye) which seems to be getting cloudy from the inside out. After reading this site I figured I would try the hyposalinity approach. I lowered his salinity from .022 to .17 within a few hours and he did not seem to like this. He stopped swimming and just sat at the bottom of the tank, but them seemed better the next day. So over the course of the next 2 days I got the salinity down to .009. He has been in this water for almost a week now and seems to have become worse. Did notice the white spots ( ICK) are gone though.

    His eye ( same 1 eye) has become complety cloudy and the clear lens cover on his eye seems to be gone, but his other eye is fine. He also has devoloped a cottony growth on the right side of his back ( maybe 1/4") and his overall color seems to have become lighter. He stopped eating. I was doing some more reading and initially I thought he had a negative bactreria infection so I started to put tetracycline in the tank 3 days ago. Seems to have no effect on him. He is still alive but does not really move. I can only tell he's alive by seeing if he is breathing. He barely moves and leans to the side with the bad eye ( possibly his balance is off).

   So that's what brings me here. I tried to do what I could, but my diagnosis must be off. I actually dont know what to think after seaching and searching the internet. Any help would be greatly appriciated.

Thank you for your time,

Dan

Welcome Dan! and thanks for the compliments! 

What were the water parameters.  Fluctuating or spiking parameters can exacerbate disease and weaken the puffer's immune system and ability to fight off opportunistic pathogens.

What type of water do you use for water changes?  How do you prepare your water?

Check out the ich thread: http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic31173-10-1.aspx

Ich can be exacerbated or brought on by stress - new tank, fluctuating water parameters, transport, etc.  The false sense of doing better is often due to the fact that the feeding ich parasite has finished eating and has dropped off to become the next stage - cysts.  These cysts then develop into MANY hungry free swimming parasites.  It is not uncommon for a secondary bacterial infection to occur with a parasitic infection.

The "intolerance" of lowering the salinity was probably not due to the lowering but rather the progression of the parasite and the bacteria and the stress.  With puffers, the salinity can safely be lowered over 12 -24 hours.  Hyposalinity will only kill marine ich not other parasites like amyloodinum ocellatum (marine velvet) and brooklynella.

This does not sound good.  I would recommend checking the water parameters closely.  Do a large water change - slowly raise the salinity up to 1.018 over the next 24 hours.  I would do a formalin bath (well aerated for one hour).  I would also start Seachem Cupramine and Mardel's Maracyn -2 or a nitrofurazone product or kanamycin.  Increase the aeration in the tank.  What type of filtration/water movement is in this tank?

This sounds like possibly another opportunistic parasite - possibly brooklynella or velvet.  Definitely the puffer has a secondary bacterial infection as well.  Any chance you can post a picture?

This is a very serious situation and the prognosis is very guarded.

Please keep us updated.

Best of luck.

   Thanks for the fast reply. Hopefully it's not too late. Initally, the water parameters were 0 NO2, 0 NO3, 0 AMONIA, 8.4 PH, Salinity 1.022. 2 days later they were .5 NO2, 20 NO3, .25 AMONIA, 8.4, Salinity 1.022. I did a 50% water change that day and now daily I do a 25% water change.  Over 3 days lowerd the Salinity to .009. I test the water before I change it everyday and it always has  .25 NO2, 10 NO3, 0 AMONIA, 8.4 PH, and Salinity 1.009. After the change, eveything 0's out ( except the PH of course).  I use RODI water with a double DI pass. I use a TDS monitor so I know the water is good.

I also use a whisper 30 filter with no carbon ( because of the medication), just a pad to pick up anything floating around. I change the filter pad every few days. As far as airation is concerned I do not have an airstone in there or anything like that. With this hangon fliter the water just circulates and was told by my LFS that that would be fine for a quarantine tank. Do I need something like an airstone with an air pump too?

I would post a picture, but the water is very red from the Tetracycline ( I tried, cant see anything of value).

  At this point should I stop using the Tetracycline? I am doing a water change right now as usual, but will bring the salinity up slowly. In the meantime, should my next step be using a formalin bath?

Thanks so much,

Dan

An airstone is helpful and I add one to all tanks that I am treating as when a fish is stressed their metabolism and oxygen demand increases.

I would do a formalin bath incase this is another parasite.  This will remove some of the parasite load.  Seachem copper will help treat if this is ich or velvet. 

Please keep us updated.

Best of luck.

 Thanks again for all the adivce. Here's what I did so far. I raised his salinity to 1.013 yesterday. I will raise it to 1.018 by tomorrow. I'm just going slow to reduce stress. I also went out and bought some Beta Glucan. I crushed up a tablet and put it in his tank. I would mix it in his food, but he's not eating right now so I guess that is better than nothing. This morning I went to go change his water and he seems to be doing a bit better. He was actually swimming a bit vs. doing nothing. I then noticed that his eye is starting to produce a membrane back around his bad eye. What's growing back is cloudy but I assume it's better than not having anything there at all. I guess this is his lens attempting to grow back. I hope thats the case.  His cottony patch on his back has tighened up a bit and is not as cottony.

      I also got an air pump and stone for him today along with his medication. I was telling the LFS about the problem and he recommended me not to use copper when I told him about the Puffers eye lens not being there. He told me it might burn his eye out, he did however tell me to give him some formalin. So I gave him a dose of that. I also put another dose of Beta Glucan in there tonight. Everything is up in the air right now, but just wanted to keep you updated. If you have any further advice, I am always open to listen. I will keep you updated.

Thanks,

Dan

Formalin is more caustic and "burning" than copper.  The copper will not burn the eye out.  If the eye is already damaged to the point of losing it, nothing will stop that process.  The puffer needs the copper to get rid of the parasites.  I have successfully used copper (Cupramine) for 15 years.  

Only do formalin baths - do not add it to the tank as it will affect any biological filtration.

Keep the added aeration and monitor water parameters closely.

Keep up with the beta glucan as well.

Are you dosing with antibiotics?

Any pics?

Best of luck.

 I did give formalin in his tank last night. The LFS guy said that is dissapates in about an hour so I would have to add it to the tank everyday. I don't know if this is correct, but this is what he tells me. I have copper here already but no cupramine. I have Red Sea paracure and Mardel coppersafe. Would either of these be OK to use. I used the coppersafe on 2 small clownfish one time per Mardels's directions and it nearly killed them. I had to take them out as they were convulsing. Since then I have bought a copper testing kit so the next time I use the copper I will know whats going on, as before I just followed the instrctions on the the copper bottle. What should the copper be in order to kill the parasite but not the fish? The directions on the tester say around 30ppm is good.

    I am not using Anti biotics as I looked around at the ones you mentioned and they all seem to be prescription. Can you let me know of any that are not?

   The water is getting less red since I stopped using the Tetracycline, so I should be able to take pics in a day or so. Todays he is a bit more active along with a complete membrane around his eye agian, but the membrane is completely cloudy to the point you can see his eye. The membrane is solid white. Today I will raise his salinity to about 1.018. I will also wait to hear about the copper and anibiotics from you, then I will act accordingly.

Thanks again,

Dan

Most medications do lose potency but traces still remain so you run the risk of chemical reactions and overdose.  I would NEVER add formalin to a tank - only use in a separate designated bath bucket.

 I would not mix anything in the tank.  Especially since there are still degraded tetracycline in the tank.

Mardel's CopperSafe is a chelated copper - check out other threads in this forum about chelated vs nonchelated.  It is not the best copper but if you have no other - use it.  Make sure you test daily with the appropriate copper test kits - some test for chelated others non chelated and you could easily overdose or underdose if you use the wrong test kit. 

Whatever copper you use, follow the directions on the bottle & test daily. SeaChem Cupramine is the best and safest copper.  The clowns could have been "convulsing" because of incorrect dosing or if there were other chemicals in the tank - toxic chemical reaction.

If your LFS carries Mardel's coppersafe, they should carry Mardel's Saltwater Maracyn-2.  That is not prescription.  You can buy products like Furan, Furanace at many LFS, online vendors, etc.

There is still degraded tetracycline in this system  - need to remove it with aggressive water changes and carbon. 

Remove the other chemicals before starting further treatment or start treatment in a different bare bottom tank.  If you use carbon - remove it. I would start copper asap and as soon as you can, start the antibiotics as bacterial infections can quickly spread and overcome the fish.

Best of luck.

   Just wanted to fill you in on the progress. I went out yesterday and got some Cupramine. I dosed the tank with that after the water change. I changed 75% of his water. I got the salinity to 1.018. I could not find any of the medication that you recommended, but I am still on the hunt. However I did find Metronidazole. I dosed the tank with some of that also. I was on Seachem site and saw a product called Paracure. Do you think it might be wise to use that? The puffer seems to be doing a bit better as he is swimming a whole lot more, just still has the white eye.

Thanks,

Dan