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| from a PM: Anthony - I was able to get a lot of my questions answered
through WWM and reef central. I hold your opinions
with the highest regards so my main question for you
is what is the max flow through a refugium (for
nitrate reduction). My sump measures 36x20x20 I will
be running the water on average at 13 inches (40
gallons). My refugium section however is only 12x20
(13.5 gallons). For flow rate I was looking at 420
GPH on the low end (blueline 30HD pump), and on the
high end I was considering 650 GPH (blueline 40 HD
pump). Your insight when you have a chance would be
greatly appreciated!
. Anthony Calfo
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cheers  Please tell us more about your intended use for this sump. Frankly, I have concerns that the sump is already too small (without the refugium) and integrated refugiums are often an inconvenience and weakly effective for their handicapped size. If the display is larger than 90 gall... then this sump cannot afford to have a refugium notched out of it (unless you fully automate evap top off. Even then... you are pushing your luck IMO Without the refugium in place... I'd suggest no more than 700-800 gph through this sump loop, then provide adequate flow in the display (to hit 30-60X turnover) via a CLM or tunze streams, etc. I seriously doubt you will want or need a large external water pump pushing massive flow through this sump loop (noise, microbubbles, etc) Please see the sticky atop this forum called "Fav links..." In it you will see my best efforts to refer you to the best books, urls and threads. Check those threads in the alphabetical list under "Discussions" and see links to great info on these topics you seek (refugiums, water flow, plumbing, etc) and holler back if you still have questions my friend. best of luck/life
. Anthony Calfo
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Last Login: 2/23/2007 1:56:43 PM
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Anthony, Thank-you very much for taking the time to respond. My tank is a 180-gallon reef ready oceanic tank. This is my first large tank and first tank with a sump. I have attached a picture of the outline of the sump. It was the suggestion of my LFS to set it up this way, and being that the work was all custom and I paid for it, going to try and incorporate it into my set up. I have an ETSS 800 skimmer that will be plumbed externally in the drain area of the sump. It will be powered by a Blueline 55HD pump. The sump is small so I can fit everything under the tank. Originally I was going to shoot for 540 gallons per hour through the sump/refugium, however from the way it sounds that may be too much? Now I was thinking of 400 GPH, not giving me that much turnover though (2.2 timers per hour). Inside the tank I will have 300-350 pounds of live rock and 4 Tunze 6000 (1,850 GPH each). I would like to grow some copepods in the sump and mainly reduce any nitrates in the tank. It will be a reef set up, with many LPS corals and heavily stocked in fish.
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cheers my friend... welcome to MD  Hmmm... I'm really not sure where to begin here. I see you have spent significant time and money on the installation... but it is poorly designed frankly. As it stands, it will cost you more money to make this work, or (better) it needs scrapped. The skimmer placement may not give you optimal performance unless you concentrate the (skimmer) pump well smaller... feed the skimmer raw water... or at least get the pump to draw from closer to the surface (surface extractor). Please see the pre-2006 list of threads for improving skimmer production in my list of Fav links (under discussions for Protein skimmers). That will detail the reasons why. The media block after the skimmer and before the refugium is a mistake by any definition. Its not needed for diffusing bubbles that will easily be dispersed anyways (refugium if kept), it will require near daily rinsing to prevent becoming a source of nitrate and accum. DOs... its depriving the refugium of needed foodstuffs (particulates). I see no redeeming quality to it whatsoever. The refugium here is going to be too small to produce any significant amount of microcrustaceans.,.. not leats of which for a 180 gall tank (!) And finally... the sump reservoir here (right side, post-refugium) is so small that you will not be able to go but days (at best) between evap top offs. You need a very reliable float switch here... and even that is a calculated (reliability) risk. Bottom line... this sump is very undersized for a 180 gallon tank. If you must keep it tidy (versus a remote sump), my advice is to lose the refugium and install a well/bucket for the skimmer to draw all raw water from (first stage) while the rest of the tank acts as a large sump proper. This really is a poor design I regret to say (handicapped and without longview planning)
. Anthony Calfo
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| And to think I actually paid to have this design done up! Well, trial by error I guess. I would like to incorporate a fuge into the design, but to fit everything under the cabnet, this is the design I was told to go with. I will see my LFS and question them about this. Also, if somehow this design could work, what flow rate do you think would be optimal (not that it would probably matter judging on the layout feedback ?
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| its a matter of mathematics my friend... the evaporation on a 180 gallon tank with a sump this small is not compatible. At all. You will be a slave to evap or you will simply burn out an expensive pump. SO the solution is a float switch... but they are far from being long term reliable (floods, pump burn out still). The best solution is really a larger, proper sump. If you cannot do a remote sump, and if you cannot do a remote (upstream likely... cool mangrove display, seagrass tank with seahorses, etc)... then my strong advice is to not employ a refugium integrated in this sump at all. No refugium. Its the lesser of two evils here. As for flow in any fuge... it is wholly dependant on the needs of the species kept. If its Gracilaria for pod production... you will need 30X +. If its Chaetomorpha, you can go less. Mangroves (if it were a larger refugium), less flow still. Bottom line bro... the designer of this sump did not do their math. Don't take my word for it... run the sump and see in 72 hours :p Eh... sorry to jest/make light of it. I am sorry for the lost time/money here my friend. I trust that the LFS designer will be very defensive to hear my opinion and will show you their sumps (with employees that can top off daily in a pet store that is humid - read: less evap - than your home, etc). We'll see
. Anthony Calfo
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Thank you so much for all the input. I don't mind topping off the water on a regular basis (actually my son wont mind doing it  but I see what you mean about being impracticle. I really wanted a refugium because all of the added benefits. Being my first tank with a sump, this has been a learning experience for me. Also the being that the sump is custom made, I can't return it either. So I can run it until I have a new and improved one made On this 40 gallon sump with the 14 gallon fuge what do you feel would be my ideal flow rate (until I rectify the situation. Do you think I should use the blueline 30HD or go with the 40HD. Regardless I will have a new design made, but in the mean time, just curouis on your thoughts. And once again thanks, been going over all the links and they have been very helpful!
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| while the sump is new... do consider selling it to someone with a smaller tank where it would be better suited. Then you could make a new sump that suits you better (read: small skimmer well as first stage for collecting raw water... tiny really: just big enough for skimmer pump, and then the rest of the sump open for a buffer for the system and allowing you to actually take weekend vacations without fear of every living thing dying when the sump loop drops out from forgotten evap topping and the drop in O2, etc) eBay or the sales/goods forums perhaps?
. Anthony Calfo
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Group: Moderators
Last Login: 11/4/2009 7:08:25 PM
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Group: Forum Members
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| I guess I could always use the sump/fuge as a beer cooler J Thanks for all your help and input, it has been tremendously appreciated. I have a lot more work to do and a lot of decisions to make. I have been reading a lot of articles on circulation and water flow. I am curious what is the optimal tank turnover rate that should pass through a sump per hour. I have read a lot of articles that state 4-6 times, but have heard many debates of much higher and lower flows. I didn’t know if there were any benefits to a high flow or low flow system. Is 2-time turnover rate for tank volume through a sump per hour sufficient to reduce nitrates? Have been very curious about this…
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