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Multi-tank/biotope systems and allelopathy... Expand / Collapse
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Posted 3/2/2006 7:50:30 PM
 

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I am looking to run my main display tank as reef type set up but looking to have my basement lagoon be something out of the ordinary, plant material, grasses, mangroves and other things that will grow out of the water.  maybe some other uniques species found typically in a planted set up.  these two tanks run in series together so i am concerned that stuff put in the lower lagoon will adversely affect the corals in the upper display or vice versa.  My ultimate goal is to have 2 very different set ups sharing the same water.  Are there things to avoid in the lagoon that will harm the corals.

Current Tanks: 240 reef room divider connected to 1000 gallon refugium in basement
Post #28398
Posted 3/2/2006 8:17:09 PM


 

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its a mixed blessing... you will get the benefit of nitrate reduction, nutrient banking (or export if you harvest) from the plants and algae... you will get added temp stability of system for extra water... you will get competition between corals and plants/algae for nutrients... you will get some noxious exudations and water discolarants from the algae, etc.

You must weigh the benefits against the burdens and see what appeals to you most.

.

Anthony Calfo

Post #28399
Posted 3/2/2006 8:29:14 PM
 

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you will get competition between corals and plants/algae for nutrients

Anthony.  Can you expand on that?  I am curious to hear your thoughts on nutrient competition between plants and corals.

Fred

Post #28400
Posted 3/3/2006 2:29:53 PM


 

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 Hmmm... simple in many ways. Magnesium for starters. Iodine severely perhaps. Calcium and carbonates indeed by calcareous species such as Halimeda. There are many many ways plants & algae compete with corals for elements in the water. And some are known to produce specific chemicals to burn back corals and other (site) competitors. These exudations are concentarted/amplified in clsed aquaria.

Some plants and algae is nice... excess is, er... well excess

You see similar "poisonings" of tanks that have an excess of corallimorphs, Briareum or mucous soft corals (such as Colt).

.

Anthony Calfo

Post #28468
Posted 3/4/2006 12:01:03 PM
 

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I hadn't thought about magnesium, though that and calcium are easily dosed.  Aleopathy would be more problematic.  You can use carbon, but if you don't know what compounds you are dealing with, how can you be sure you are reducing them enough?

Personally I would love to have the setup mentioned here so I could play.

If you go ahead and add plants to your basement lagoon, let us know things turn out.

Fred

Post #28559
Posted 3/4/2006 3:43:11 PM
 

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My plan is to start by adding a couple large mangroves, then after a while maybe bull rush or something that will have some hieght to it out of the water.  I will take it slow and cautious.  From what i gather I may be ok to add a few things but not to get carried away.  wish me luck and i will keep you posted.

Current Tanks: 240 reef room divider connected to 1000 gallon refugium in basement
Post #28574
Posted 3/5/2006 9:06:00 AM


 

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I just set up a new system back in November which is similar to what you describe huskereef. I have a 90g mixed SPS/soft coral tank which has been running for two years, and my new setup - a 100g sump, 100g lagoon ( mix of LR, seagrass, and soft corals ), 35g fuge with macro ( 2 sp. gracillaria, cheato, ulva, caulerpa peltata ), 33g anemone/clown tank, and I just added a small tank for a mangrove. I just added the seagrass ( Thallasia ) this past week, the macro has been in there a month or so, and no mangrove yet. I've been adding iron for the last week, and I just started adding nitrate today.

Eventually I want to add an SPS dominated tank to this as well.

I'm curious Anthony, you mention noxious exudations, just how noxious, and do you see any problems with aleopathy with my current setup/plans.

I have a rather large skimmer which pulls alot of nasty gunk, I currently do 40 gallons a week water change, and I havent been running carbon. So far it's very lightly stocked.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

- David -

Post #28625
Posted 3/5/2006 10:53:16 AM


 

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no worries David... with the hearty water change schedule you are doing, it is likely a big help here... if you added ozone to the system, I'd have few if any worries about the exudations. Please stay strong with those water changes though.. it is crucial IMO.

If you do a keyword search combinations for "algae"  "allelopathy" and with "scleractinia" on http://scholar.google.com you will find some very interesting hits.

Plus... below are some references to follow that Eric shared with me some years ago:

1. Anjaneyulu ASR, Prakash CVS, Raju KVS, Mallavadhani UV. 1992. 
Isolation of new aromatic derivatives from a marine algal species Caulerpa racemosa. 
J Natural Products 55(4): 496-499.
summary: produce acetylenic sequiterpenoids, triterpenoids, nitrogenous compounds in addition to the red pigment, caulerpin. 
Along with caulerpin is a colorless toxic substance; a mixture of N-acyl sphingosines and sitosterol. 5 new propane dimer compounds found - 
uncommon aromatic derivatives not usually found in marine algae.
 
2. Faulkner, DJ. 1988. Marine Natural Products. Natural Products 
Reports. 615-616 University of California, San Diego, Scripps Institute of Oceanography, La Jolla, CA 92093 USA
summary:  caulerpin and its corresponding diacid show activity similar 
to indoleacetic acid - six new sesquiterpenes isolated from C. ashmeadii and 
found toxic to damselfish and showed antimicrobial activity. 
 
3. Hashimoto Y. and Fusetani N. 1972. Screening of the toxic algae on coral reefs. 
Proceedings of the International Seaweed Symposium 7: 569-572.
summary: caulerpicin and caulerpin, toxic substances of the genus 
Caulerpa, accumulate in the food chain - found in gastropods, surgeonfish and soft corals 
but found comapratively non-toxic to mammals.
 
4. McConnell Oliver J., Hughes Patricia A.,, Targett Nancy M, Daley 
Joyce. 1982. Effects   of secondary metabolites from marine algae on feeding by the sea urchin, Lytechinus variegatus. 
J Chemical Ecology 8(12): 1437-1453.
summary: C. prolifera: caulerpenyne (oxygenated sesquiterpene)
C. racemosa and C. ahmaedii contained caulerpin caulerpenyne and 
extract from C. prolifera redeces urchin herbivory by 50%,singificantly - even at 0.4% of fresh weight and 0.1% extract 
although very high levels of caulerpin in other species, feeding not detreed in the urchin 
(believed for this urchin to be a chemical attractant as it is 
toxic to other animals)
 
5. Meinesz, Alexandre and Simberloff, Daniel. 1999. Killer Algae. 
University of Chicago Press, Chicago. pp. 295-304.
summary:  mainly concerns the highly problematic C. taxifolia (I'm sure 
you can get plenty of information on this puppy!). Caulerpales have 
specific anatomy of no internal cell walls and therefore no specialized cells.  
When cut a milsky "sap" flows out with carbohydrte plug formed quickly. 
Liquid occupies entire cavity of the algae. Compsoed of three elements: 
stolon, fronds and rhizoids. Stolon can be over 2m in length andis branched. 
Greek caulos meaning stem and erpo meaning creep.  rhizoids penetrate every surface 
and adapt to bottom texture (long in sand or mud, short in rock) axes can grwo up to 2cm/day, 
elongteing at one end and dying at the other, no part of thallus lives more than a year. 
Leads to rapdily dense colonies that then compeete with plants and sessile animals. up to 8200 frons/square meter. 
When axes die, colony becomes fragmented.  Each fragment, so long as it contains a 
nucleus, can form a new alga and all fragments likely contain numerous 
nuclei. 1cm fragment can produce 3m colony in 6 months. Reproduction 
follows an unusal strategy - several days each year, nucleus joins with 
chloroplast, surrounds itself with a membrane and transforms into male or female gamte, 
expelled through small orfiices and the plant dies (no cell walls, so everythingis lost). 
Plants are monecious (both sexxes in same plant) and gametes are about 5 micrometeres- passage from egg to palnt takes 3-6 months - 
puts pretty much everything into sexual reproduction and is designed that way. Caulerpa includes nearly 100 species - 
most of those we keep are both tropical and temperate (prolifera, taxifolia, racemosa, mexicana, crassifolia)
 
6. Littler, Diane Scullion and Littler, Mark Masterson. 2000. Caribbean 
Reef Plants. OffShore Graphics Inc, Washington, D.C. pp. 356-380
summary: Caulerpa racemosa overtops and kills reef-building corals. 
textbook (didn’t get the reference information) Introduction to the 
Algae pp. 229-230 "the production of a deadly posion by species of Caulerpa, 
referred to as caulerpicin... is known to enter marine food chains. 
 
7.  Paul, Valerie J., and Fenical, William. 1986. Chemical defense in 
tropical green algae, order Caulerpales. Marine Ecology Progress Series 
34: 157-169
summary - ok, this is the mother lode....
40 species of Caulerpa chemically investigated. "virtually all produce 
toxic seconary metabolites of a unique and unprecedented class. These 
metabolites are generally linear terpenoids, but unsual structural features 
such as aldehydes and bis-enol acetate functional groups makes these compounds unqiue. 
the compounds are toxic or deterrent towards microorganisms,s ea urchin larvae, and herbivorous fishes, 
and when incorporated into diets at naturally occurring concentrations casue mortality in juvenile conch. 
Concentrations of bioactive metabolites were found to show liittle variation in different plant parts such as baldes, 
stipes, and holdfasts." Young growing tips and reproductive structures contained 
higher concentartions than mature plant tissues on dry weight basis (i.e. youprune it, you get more toxins).  
Qualitative and quantitative variation observed in different populations of the same species. 
Highest herbivory = greatest concentrations. all of the metabolites showed antimicrobial acitivity
several toxic to sea urchin sperm at very low concentrations
all compounds toxic to sea urchin larvae within 24 hours and several 
active at very low  (1 x 10-7M) concentration majority were toxic to fish within 1 hour 
at concentrations as low as 5micrograms/ml - compounds not direectly toxic still showed detrimental 
effects (sedated beahvior, discoloration, increased respiration)
all showed significant fish feeding deterrence 50% of conchs died within 6 days feeding on Caulerpa caulerpenyne 
was 0.35% dry weight (very high levels)"Of the many diverse metabolites 
that we and others have isolated from a wider spectrum of marine plnts, 
few show the potent activities of these green algal metabolites in these bisassays. 
The compounds inhibit the growth of microorganisms, development of fertilzied urchin eggs, 
and they are toxic to larval and adult stages of potential herbivores."
Caulerpenyne isolated in varying concentrations from C. taxifolia, 
sertularoides, racemosa, mexicana, cuppressoides, prolifera, verticallata, paspaloides, and lanuginosa. 
and shows strong toxic and feeding deterrent properties - much of the biological activity of Caulerpa owed tothis compound. 
Parrotfish show low survivability when fed Caulerpales- with mortalities attributed to Caulerpa toxins. 


.

Anthony Calfo

Post #28634
Posted 3/5/2006 10:57:21 AM


 

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my general position/opinion as an aquarist is that I have a bias towards keeping and enjoying marine plants and algae. I find them to be especially beautiful and I regard tanks without them as lacking in some ways. Just my preference.

As a hobby mentor, though, I must offer the caveat that some algae can be a terrible nuisance if not outright noxious or toxic to the other desirable organisms we keep (fishes allowed to graze daily on unnaturally large quantities of noxious algae over time... growth of corals, etc)

In a phrase... its all good if kept in moderation.

.

Anthony Calfo

Post #28636
Posted 3/5/2006 11:54:41 AM


 

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Wow, thank you for the detailed post about the caulerpa, I actually had no intention of having caulerpa in the refugium, but I had a few pieces in another tank so I dropped a piece in for a little more diversity. I do keep it well trimmed so the piece never exceeds 10 inches in length.

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

- David -

Post #28643
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