finnan	Posted Monday, January 16, 2006 2:49 PM
Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 10:32 PM Posts: 5, Visits: 9	Hi.  This is our cowfish, Apollo, who has lived here for 2.5 years.  He and his F.O. tankmates (3 tangs, 1 tomato clown, 1 triggerfish in a 240 gal tank with live rock) have been through a dreadful couple of months after I foolishly cut short the quarantine period on a new fish and added it to the main tank.  We have had Ich, velvet, and severe secondary infections which were treated with antibiotics which knocked out the bacterial filter for a while.  The Ich has continued at a lesser intensity, despite having a 1.008 hyposaline environment for over 4 weeks.  All the fish are a lot better now, but Apollo's eyes continue to have white growths which have been there for several weeks, ever since the initial Ich infestation when the problem was so severe that he could not see to eat.  It would seem that this problem is not Ich as the spots are of long duration.  His eyes are cloudy immediately around the white spots, but clear otherwise.  Can anyone tell me what this might be?  (The central white spot is not a reflection.)
Post #20984
finnan	Posted Monday, January 16, 2006 2:51 PM
Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 10:32 PM Posts: 5, Visits: 9	I'm sorry.  I seem to have put the above post in the wrong place.
Post #20985
Puffer Queen	Posted Monday, January 16, 2006 3:34 PM
Group: Moderators Last Login: Today @ 7:14 AM Posts: 169, Visits: 134	Finnan, Thanks for posting the pic. It really helps with diagnosis and treatment. It appears your long horned cow fish still has ich. This also means the tank that he currently is being housed has ich as well. Please tell us more about your tank set up and post water parameters. What are you using to measure your salinity ? What treatments have you used and what time frame/length of treatment ? Did you treat in the display tank? Is there substrate and/or live rock? Kelly
Post #21000
finnan	Posted Monday, January 16, 2006 7:31 PM
Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 10:32 PM Posts: 5, Visits: 9	Thanks for finding my post, Kelly!  The fish tank was here when we bought the house 3 yrs ago, so I am a relative newby.  Yes, the fish have remained in the display tank throughout, purely for logistical reasons.  The 6'W X 3'H tank is in a wall between two rooms, and the top of the tank is 6' off the floor with light bars and ceiling closely above.  There is live rock in the tank, a trigger fish which would be difficult to catch, and the cowfish would need his own tank if moved out.  (I learned this to my cost. My first fish shopping purchases consisted of the cowfish and 4 other fish which were found dead in the QT next morning.  Apparently the cowfish had released his toxin.  The big tank would seem to have enough water to dilute the toxin if he becomes frightened.  He's a great personality fish, though!)  There is a protein skimmer, a bioball tower, and I have added a UV sterilizer and a cleaner wrasse this week. Nov 23/05  Ich appeared in tank after introduction of a new fish (my second fish shopping trip...sigh)  All fish had ich (the trigger had only a slight infestation) and the tomato clown had ?velvet.  New fish (juvenile emperor angel) died.  Dec 14-19  Secondary infections apparent.  Apollo lying on tank bottom, green-brown in colour, fins eroded, "skin tags" hanging off, eyes coated with ich, not eating.  Tangs have some red streaking.    Maracyn commenced Dec 14, Maracyn 2 commenced Dec 15  (this was freshwater Maracyn, which was all that was available locally--the LFS were told that it could be used for S/W as well.  I later discovered that this is incorrect and the Mardel tech told me Maracyn F/W had never been tested in S/W.)  The infections cleared up (still some red on the tangs, however) and the fish started to improve.  Large white spots still visible on Apollo's eyes.  Carbon filtration added.  Ammonia starting to show on testing. Dec 20  Hyposalinity 1.008 established.  Tested with refractometer. Dec 20-31  Nitrogen cycle re-established with some fish stress but no losses, thank goodness. Present:  all fish improving, tangs and cowfish have small amount of ich, but behaving normally and eating well.  The large white spots are still on the cowfish's eyes from the initial ich infestation.  I intend to start increasing the salinity again this week, as the hyposalinity has served the purpose of making the fish more comfortable while they were ill, but has not controlled the ich infestation. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Anne
Post #21070
Puffer Queen	Posted Monday, January 16, 2006 9:45 PM
Group: Moderators Last Login: Today @ 7:14 AM Posts: 169, Visits: 134	Anne, Please visit the disease, health & wellness forum & read the thread "ich". First suggestion - do not raise your salinity.  It needs to remain at 1.009 for a minimum of 4 weeks preferably 8 weeks in your case.  There is still ich in your tank and as soon as you raise it back, your fish, especially the cowfish will become very infested. Is there substrate in your tank? Do you check salinity and pH daily.  Fluctuations in both are expected and must be avoided at all costs.  One must keep up with daily top offs and buffer as needed to stabilize the pH.  Since the live rock's microfauna has died off due to the hyposalinity and the biological filtration has been affected by the antibiotics, the water parameters will be marginal at this time. I would also suggest monitoring/checking water parameters daily and doing water changes to stabilize.  Decreasing stress is a big factor in disease management. I would remove the cleaner wrasse immediately.  They are not compatible with cow fish.  They will cause damage to his shell/skin and will cause him undue stress. A UV sterilizer can help decrease the number of parasites but will not irradicate the parasite.  Make sure you are prefiltering the water going through the sterilizer to get the best benefit of its use. Another suggestion would be to add beta glucan, garlic and vitamins to the diet of the fish.  There is a thread on the disease, health & wellness forum as well.  These additives will help boost the fish's immune system so it can fight the parasite and any other opportunistic pathogen in the tank. Best of luck, Kelly Kelly

Anne

Are you treating the display tank with antibiotics?

I know you are treating the display tank with hyposalinity so the ich should be gone from the tank in 8 weeks.

I agree - if you treat with antibiotics, it would be better in a separate tank & continue the hyposalinity.

As far as sterilizing the rock, I think the substrate (gravel) is more of a source of retaining bacteria than the rock.  I would leave the rock in the display tank.  Consider removing the substrate if you are worried about the bacteria.  I have experienced and have seen in other hobbyists' tanks reoccuring bacterial infections.  I cultured mine as well as a couple others and found some bad bacterial strains that lived/multiplied in the crushed coral substrate of Fish only systems.  When the substrate was removed (siphoned out, not scooped or netted out), the bacterial infections went away.  Just a thought/consideration.  Removing the gravel could also remove some of the ich cysts that are developing.

Just a reminder to monitor your pH closely (at least daily) while doing hyposalinity.  It can drop quickly.  Buffer additions may be needed.

If you have a plastic lighting screen/grate (bought mine at Home Depot).  You can divide your tank to keep fish from fighting.  Here is a terrible pic but you can get the idea.

Are you adding any supplements to the fishes' diet?

Keep us posted.  Best of luck.

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Any updates on your tangs, clown or cow fish ?

Hope things are going better for you and your fish.

Anne

Sorry for your losses.