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RE: Seagrass Substrates

charlesr1958 — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:25:23 GMT

For seagrass, the keywords are " into the substrate " while the macroalgae are better suited for dissolved nutrient removal from the water column. Please update this thread as you move along and let us know how it works out for you. Thanks!

Chuck

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 08:00:51 GMT

I should have specified: what I mean by experiment was referring to what I had posted above about starting out with synthetic sediments/substrates. I gather that the Halophile/Halodule and various other pioneer species are adapted to cleaner, nutrient deficient substrates and may be capable of taking hold in a very new sand bed. However, even these species may benefit from certain supplements, hence the experiment. If something seems to work well, trying a climax species would really put the theory to the test with their more demanding requirements.

The goal would be a parallel methodology to freshwater planted where certain elements known to benefit the plants are incorporated into the substrate so that the plants can immediately begin growing healthily. The more demanding freshwater plants seem to have somewhat similar requirements to seagrasses and also do not pull substantial amounts of nutrients from the water, and nutritive substrates are required.

Thank you both for the responses - very informative.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Eric Borneman — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:38:54 GMT

I agree with Chuck. The CO2 part is interesting in terms of the Japanese system, especially if the tank were a seagrass habitat alone or could be effectively remote and allow for CO2 to be converted in the water before going into another tank as low pH water. The CO2 would make sense in terms of the leaf uptake, but you still need those sediment nutrients, and CO2 isn't enough. That's what was interesting about the Japanese system and its relative successes and shortcomings. Also, by converting - or attempting to convert - a sandbed into a calcium reactor, you would theoretically be losing the benefits of CO2 to the leaves as the CO2 would be converted to bicarbonate and carbonate by reacting to whatever degree in the sand, and also changing the dynamics of the sand flora and fauna. However, that said, the pH of seagrass sediments is generally low due to the organic content and are reducing sediments (Halophila, new pioneer species (e.g. sparse Halodule, etc.)) excepted to some extent since they are found in cleaner more pure carbonates like you would find some calcareous macroalgae (Halimeda, Penicillus, etc.).

What I am trying to get at is that the reduced pH of a sandbed using CO2 *might* more approximate seagrass meadow sediments, but if the sediments are not organically enriched then there is no net benefit and furthermore the pH of the organically enriched sediments naturally are of lower pH from being dominated by microbial reduction processes, acting in a sense like a calcium reactor anyway.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

charlesr1958 — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:51:33 GMT

Sweet Reefer (6/5/2008)

Just what I was hoping for - a correlation with freshwater planted.

Would injecting CO2 into a remote plumbed seagrass tank with aragonite deep sand bed act similar to a calcium reactor, I wonder?

No, only because you would not be able to drop the pH of the system low enough to dissolve calcium carbonate without killing everything.

I finally found a source of Halophila, unfortunately the are very much wholesale. Anybody want to go into the seagrass import business? Just kidding, I think we should be farming them.

I think that area is wide open for anyone wishing to cultivate Halophila, and being one of most hardiest and fasted growing of the seagrasses, it should not require a great deal of effort.

Would Halodule species be a good analog for experimentation until I can get my hands on a small sample of Halophila? I suppose if I could get it to work with a climax species all others would fall in line, in theory.

There shouldn't be a need to experiment, their habitats and requirements are well known, but doing so would be good practice and the Halodule are also a fairly hardy and fast growing seagrass as well. If it were not for my clever tangs having learned they can rip up such plants to eat their roots, I would have a tank full of it myself.

Somewhat related:

Is it possible to have distinctly different environments in in-line plumbed or overflowed multi-tank system without prohibitively low flow. Actually I think I just answered my question a little, because you could have low turnover rate supplemented by recirc. pumps or not to create specific combinations of conditions.

I have this urge to create a monstrous gradient system that would mimic natural processes and model naturally occurring niches within a given ecosystem. I may be partway there, I think.

YES! and I strongly encourage anyone and everyone to give it a go. Had I known more of such habitats many years ago, it would have made my, and my tank's life much easier and much more enjoyable.

Chuck

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:14:40 GMT

Just what I was hoping for - a correlation with freshwater planted.

Would injecting CO2 into a remote plumbed seagrass tank with aragonite deep sand bed act similar to a calcium reactor, I wonder?

I finally found a source of Halophila, unfortunately the are very much wholesale. Anybody want to go into the seagrass import business? Just kidding, I think we should be farming them.

Would Halodule species be a good analog for experimentation until I can get my hands on a small sample of Halophila? I suppose if I could get it to work with a climax species all others would fall in line, in theory.

Somewhat related:

Is it possible to have distinctly different environments in in-line plumbed or overflowed multi-tank system without prohibitively low flow. Actually I think I just answered my question a little, because you could have low turnover rate supplemented by recirc. pumps or not to create specific combinations of conditions.

I have this urge to create a monstrous gradient system that would mimic natural processes and model naturally occurring niches within a given ecosystem. I may be partway there, I think.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

beaslbob — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:14:13 GMT

Or Amamo. Couldn't edit.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

beaslbob — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:12:27 GMT

Just wanted to thnk Tomoko for the posts and information.

Hmmm co2 injection. almost like a FW planted. Interesting.

Also I was wondering how many things in Japon are called Amano?

my .02

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Tomoko Schum — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:38:13 GMT

You are welcome

Tomoko

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Eric Borneman — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 06:31:32 GMT

Very interesting and exactly what I would have expected. Thank you so much for the additional information.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Tomoko Schum — Fri, 30 May 2008 10:03:54 GMT

Thank you, Eric, for your insights.

Here's additional comments from Mr. Kuramitsu (the owner) of the shop Aquarie about his Zostera tank:

"I had CO2 injected into the tank. I increased CO2 injection rate to supplement the nutrients shortage in the substrate and Zostera responded well to the increased CO2 level and grew very densely. However, when their roots spread throughout the substrate, the plants started shedding old leaves more often and the growth slowed down. When the tank condition was left unchanged, some plants started dying off. So I inserted a few iron supplement tablets made for fresh water planted tanks as a trial, and Zostera started growing well again. I was aware of the importance of the nutrients in the substrate, but this experience taught me first hand just how important they were.

As for the garden eels, all the dead eels had some sort of infections near their caudal fins, and they came out of their holes eventually. I suspected that they needed a deep enough sand bed to be completely vertical. They ate just about anything I offered, but they were not heavy feeders. They probably needed a feeding system that can deliver food continuously."

Tomoko

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Eric Borneman — Mon, 26 May 2008 06:47:27 GMT

Tomoko: It's an honor to write with you and hear from the owner, as well.

I am familiar at least some of the efforts to replant the Zostera meadows around Japan. I hope Japan is choosing sites wisely and not hoping for too much if the coastal area is too polluted. I surely wish he would have been able to keep those plants for longer; it is one of the seagrasses I have never tried to maintain and they are found mainly in cooler water on our coasts and would not likely do well in tropical tanks. The photos you showed look typical for Thalassia, Zostera, Enhalus - type wide-strapped seagrasses in that they tend to survive in capable hands but do not grow quickly or form dense growth. I think nutrient limitation from the substrate is probably why. The leaves were clean and sparse but healthy - common for aquarium plants.

That is excellent news on the shrimpfish, and as for the garden eels, yes they would require a vey deep substrate and a constant flow of food. Perhaps he could contact one of the numerous public aquariums that keep them successfully, but I think a fairly large tank with the right depth and type of substrate and a nice drift of plankton and marine snow with a steady current would be required to keep them long term.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Tomoko Schum — Sat, 24 May 2008 17:21:13 GMT

Hi Eric,

I got the response from the shop owner.

The sea grass is Zostera marina supposedly (it's commonly called Amamo in Japan.)

There are a number of community based movement in Japan to plant Amamo in order to protect or bring back the field of Amamo. They recognize the importance of the habitat that Amamo offers for fish and other organisms.

The tank was set up in February 2005 and the shop kept it until October 2006. They had to take it down because they needed the space and they also had to redo their store layout. All the livestock including the sea grass and shrimpfish were in good shape when they took the tank down.

The shop kept the same shrimpfish alive and well from Mar 2005 until they sold them in January 2007 due to persistent customer requests. The shop never lost any of them before they were sold. The shrimpfish were trained to eat ordinary pellets from the owner's hand. A Japanese aquarist said that they were very tame and used to swim over to the side of the tank to beg for food. The owner told me that this type of shrimpfish are relatively easy to keep in an aquarium and they can live fairly long time in an aquarium. On the other hand, he did not have any luck with garden eels. They tend to die within one month. The longest record was just 2 months. He does not know the cause of their death. He wonders if they needed a deeper sand bed or not.

He asked me to tell you that it's an honor to be able to share his experience with you. Your name is getting to be known over there, too.

Tomoko

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Eric Borneman — Sat, 24 May 2008 05:45:01 GMT

Thank you - and also which species of seagrass are in there? I would be a bit concerned about the Caulerpa invading the seagrass and shading it without regular pruning!

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Tomoko Schum — Sat, 24 May 2008 05:29:11 GMT

Hi Eric,

I just came over to this thread and noticed your response. Sorry for not responding any sooner. I don't seem to get an email notification for a reply.

As for the refugium and its content, I just sent a message to the shop owner. Hopefully he will respond soon. I will let you know as soon as he does. I can also ask a few reefer friends in Japan who go to the shop frequently.

Tomoko

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Eric Borneman — Tue, 20 May 2008 04:01:18 GMT

Do you know how long the tanks have been set up and how long the seagrasses, shrimprfish and garden eels have survived?

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Tomoko Schum — Mon, 19 May 2008 10:16:41 GMT

The fish in the first picture is shrimpfish (Aeoliscus strigatus.)

The shop owener took the second picture by turning on the light at night to capture the image of the planktons. It's really neat, isn't it?

Tomoko

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Sun, 18 May 2008 22:20:26 GMT

I'm amazed at the number of pods coexisting with fish, and the fish don't eat them all?

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Sun, 18 May 2008 22:12:03 GMT

Wow, those are awesome! Thanks for posting. Are those pipefish in the first picture?

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Tomoko Schum — Sun, 18 May 2008 19:00:50 GMT

you might be interested in this picture: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/aqua/aquarie/pic/008.jpg

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/aqua/aquarie/pic/000000000000001.jpg

Here's a smaller one: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/aqua/aquarie/pic/ref7.jpg

Both tanks are at a shop called Aquarie in Osaka, Japan.

They used Red Sea brand aragonite sand. I cannot locate the picture that they took at night right now. A huge amount of zooplankton come out at night in these refugiums.

Tomoko

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Tue, 13 May 2008 18:03:17 GMT

Thank you very much. That's just the information I needed. The system is meant to model a reef ecosystem to some extent with several interconnected small tanks, so the goal is for one specific tank to emulate a seagrass meadow. I think I'll try to let it progress by introducing halophila first then others like thalassia later on. The aquaculture is a whole other thing, and I now have a better idea of what to try. It sounds like it may be feasible and worth trying to use certain terrestrial sources to substitute for marine sediment. There seems to be similarities between freshwater planted methodology and seagrass - they are getting on to anaerobic substrates now I think.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Eric Borneman — Tue, 13 May 2008 06:41:02 GMT

Mud, by definition, is wet, soft earth, or earthy matter.
Earth: dirt and soil, as distinguished from rock and sand.
Soil is defined as the portion of the earth composed of disintegrated rock and humus.
Humus: the dark, organic matter in soil, produced by the decomposition of vegetable or animal matter that results in the fertility of the earth.

If you look at seagrasses, they is some variation in the substrates, and it has changed some historically due to grazer elimination in many areas. Seagrass meadows, as in my articles and in Chuck's, are described in some detail, and obviously some are more carbonate friendly than others and they are successional in having pioneer and exploitative species. Climax species are the hardest to keep and grow, and they tend...tend... to be most dense and established in highly organically enriched sediments. The water column nutrients are there, but largely irrelevant because these are plants and not algae and derive nutrients from roots. The organic components may come largely from decomposing leaf litter (i.e compost), but are also common near outfalls with lots of organic particulates (coastal and therefore terrestrial material) and near mangroves. Mangroves produce mangrove peat which is much like peat you can buy. But, seagrasses and mangroves are also mainly plants that are based on carbonate sediments, either as recently made sand or deeper down, carbonate bases that include Holocene deposits from lowstand/highstand sea level changes.

How does this relate to the question? Well sugar fine aragonite is present - and often coarser grained carbonate sediments at the upper layers when forming halos around reefs or beyong reefs where Halimeda and other algae are the primary producers of carbonate sands (i.e Carib Sea special grade reef sand - mostly Halimeda type carbonate thalli), but these are highly enriched, again by leaf litter. So, is using a terrestrial organic substrate - like peat - or these many mud-like aquarium products useful? Maybe. Can you use peat moss? Maybe. It is pretty acidic and can even affect the overlying water pH in the field where there is not much water turnover to the point that calcification rates of calcifying algae, some gorgonians and even occasional stony corals is limited as a net since dissolution can meet or exceed (net loss) production. Some corals may be able to grow, but the net loss of carbonate is pretty high, and I wouldn't want to play this game in a closed system if coral growth depended on higher pH in the same closed water volume without significant separation of the systems and some for of natural ecological buffer to get the water closer to levels found on reefs and not within the seagrass bed.

A mix of organic sediments (silt, mainly - fine grained aragonite is much larger than the carbonate muds typical in segrass beds - I am referring to carbonate muds such as are found at the bottom of a calcium reactor when sand is almost totally dissolved) is a good thing for seagrasses that live in this environment. Alternately, you have others that do fine in regular carbonates like Halophila. And, even species like Thalassia can be found in fine grained or mixed grain relatively "clean" carbonates, but they tend to be less dense, shorter, and not form the extensively diverse and complex ecosystems but are rather just areas of plants without the same prominent ecological role as would be found in meadows.

So, depends on your commitment, what you want from keeping them, how well you want them to develop and grow, and how you want them to function. If you love seagrasses and want a seagrass tank, I would suggest a habitat tank and forget the reef tank unless you plan on some complex interconnection. Or, you can have a semi-functional habitat attached where they live but lack the complexity and development, or you can, with effort and species selection, have a few plants growing just fine in a normal reef tank for mainly aesthetics.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Fri, 09 May 2008 21:07:58 GMT

I agree, that's what I'm doing in my actual system exactly. I'm just wondering as far as the plants themselves go if they wouldn't be just as inclined to grow in a fine textured substrate fortified with "fertilizer" of some sort similar to any other plants. I have an interest in speeding up the process to try to aquaculture them.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

charlesr1958 — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:49:01 GMT

Personaly, I believe trying to short circuit natural processes or using landbased materials of unknown origin and composition is just asking for "it". I think you would also be surprised at how small a grain size is considered to be "mud", I doubt any sand available would ever get close to that description.

A fine as you can get calcium carbonate based sand and the time given it takes for such a sandbed to develop is your best bet, in my opinion. A one inch layer of marine mud (super fine sediment particles / detritus combo) an inch below a sugar fine calcium carbonate sand would best replicate a natural bed while most likely providing a shortened wait to plant seagrass. You can also follow the natural course of events by first planting paddle weed (Halophila sp.) if available as it can and will pave the way for other seagrass species. Again, to rush any aspect of this hobby most always has its negative consequences.

Chuck

RE: Seagrass Substrates

beaslbob — Thu, 08 May 2008 14:39:43 GMT

I forgot to mention using peat moss for the organics along with the clay.

Seems like th kelp meal would work as well.

my .02

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Thu, 08 May 2008 12:13:11 GMT

That's cool. I think the main challenge is that seagrasses need an established 6-12 months old sand bed to thrive or even survive from what I've read. The question is would adding a layer of sediment in building the sand bed cut down on that time, I imagine to something more like 6-8 weeks? If so, what would be a good substitution for natural sediment?

I'm thinking kelp meal would be good as it's loaded with trace elements and comes from the ocean. Mixed with live sand it would compost into sediment I think, then maybe a little bit of fine clay like you were saying about the infield dirt. I've also heard cheap cat litter is a really pure clay. And maybe throw some fish food in there and kick start the detritus accumulation basically.

RE: Seagrass Substrates

beaslbob — Thu, 08 May 2008 09:00:01 GMT

I have been think along the same lines so will be interested in this thread.

I have had no luck with seagrasses but have maintained 0 nitrates/phosphates with macro algaes.

I also have heard that some organics helps seagrasses.

So I was thinking (should I ever get my new refugium finished) of using Pc select (formerly soil master select) as a bottom layer. With some iron (steel wool) and lotsa crushed oyster shells on to of that with common play sand on top. Then letting the system grow out until ammonia/nitrates/phosphates are unmeasurable and the sea grasses are spreading.

Pc select is a clay used on baseball infields and popular with FW planted tanks. The oyster shells to provide the calcium carbonate provided by aragonite sand. Plus I use an oyster shell wet/dry an input into my current sump/refuge. So will probably do that also.

Hopefully thriving sea grasses can bio accumulate any bad stuff down to acceptable levels.

But I do need to get that refugium finished first. If it doesn't work then I can always revert back to a macro refuge anyway.

So waiting to see what the thoughts are on this thread.

my .02

RE: Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Thu, 08 May 2008 08:21:29 GMT

What exactly is this mud? Are the commercial products any good? One article I read said that oolitic sugar fine aragonite is basically mud by virtue of its particle size. I wonder what is the best approach with commonly available (fish store) materials?

RE: Seagrass Substrates

charlesr1958 — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:40:01 GMT

Sweet Reefer (5/7/2008)

So the reason one has to wait so long for the sand bed to mature before planting seagrasses is to allow sediment to build up for the roots to have something to draw on.

Yes, but you also want the calcium carbonate fine grained sand to adsorb phosphorous as well as to create of pool of nitrogen and available phosphorous in the pore water of the sandbed. Please read or reread the sand nutrient cycle section of this article.

I wonder if you could lay down a layer of good chemical free dirt mixed with sand then top with sand to keep it contained and bypass the long waiting period for seagrass. Or the manufactured planted tank substrate like flourite or eco-something. I think this might just be crazy enough to work - I'll try it if I can ever find any seagrass.

I would advise against using such dirt as the organic, mineral content of such dirt would most likely be vastly different than the mud that is created in a seagrass meadow. Putting down a layer (an inch or so) of available marine mud is acceptable as long as you put another layer of fine grained calcium carbonate based sand on top of it for stability.

Chuck

Seagrass Substrates

Sweet Reefer — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:18:07 GMT

So the reason one has to wait so long for the sand bed to mature before planting seagrasses is to allow sediment to build up for the roots to have something to draw on. The freshwater planted people put down substrate rich in minerals and use various fertilizers to provide adequate nutrients to the plants they grow. Some "low tech" approaches involve ordinary garden dirt.

I wonder if you could lay down a layer of good chemical free dirt mixed with sand then top with sand to keep it contained and bypass the long waiting period for seagrass. Or the manufactured planted tank substrate like flourite or eco-something. I think this might just be crazy enough to work - I'll try it if I can ever find any seagrass.