Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman / Stinky film algae / Latest Posts

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 07:23:29 GMT

Yes, it would in all likelihood.

RE: Stinky film algae

Puddles — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:15:13 GMT

Thanks Eric. Those are some pretty interesting pics. Would this stuff eventually cycle itself out?

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:50:27 GMT

>>Wow that's great news, well the algae arriving in good condition that is . Thanks so much for taking a look and verifying your original ID! It's neat (for me) to see a microscopic image of the algae in my tank, I think I'll actually save the image.<<

I'll try and fix the camera today and get better images for you.

>> I know what ciliates are (after looking it up) but you've made it sound as if that's not natural? I'm assuming what your saying is I have a "parasite" eating away at the algae, I would assume that's a good thing? What I'm confused about is how you reached the conclusion that this is a spray/contamination issue and how ciliates helped you reach this conclusion.<<

Ciliates are everywhere in marine systems. You could sample just about any substrate in your tank and find them. Some are parasites, most are just normal fauna. The thing is, I could see algal spores making their way into salt mixes and did find that in a few batches of salt mixes we tested. Ciliates, no. They could not survive dry in a bag of salt not could they be airborne. They would dessicate. They would have to be introduced.

>>The fuzz is likely from the dog, cat, or carpet as you suggested. Do you have any idea what type of "spray/contamination" could have caused this? What I mean is, is there a certain chemical or element that could have assisted in the development of the chrysophyte?<<

No, not really that I am aware of. There probably is since they are often a boom and bust transient type of algae (i.e limited by something until environmental conditions are right (disturbed habitat, etc.) and then they grow quickly and then disappear). Since they are also not very well attached by anything to each other, water motion generally prevents them from ever dominating for any length of time, but I don't know - or know if it is known - what these conditions or limiting factors are.

>>I really appreciate you taking a look at the algae and I'm sure Michelle will also appreciate the definite ID.<<

Thanks for taking the time and effort to send them. My pleasure to help.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:30:03 GMT

[quote]Eric Borneman (6/5/2008)

Hi Ryan:

Got your package and it came through perfectly. Jar and water perfect temperature. So, I am posting a photo below and then a better photo after it. The camera I use on the microscope is acting finicky and shutting the display on and off and I have to see what's up, but I did get one shot off and it's kind of blurry. Anyway, the other shot if of the same algae I sampled in the field. It all makes perfect sense - sort of.

You have chrysophytes. They are round algae related to dinoflagellates and I wrote about them in a past Reefkeeping article. They are probably what many people think are dinoflagellates in their tanks. They are indeed stinky when removed from the water, and they are indeed slimy. The cells are held together in a mucilagenous matrix. The interesting thing is you have a ton of little ciliates in there, as well, eating away at them. So, this is obviously an issue of some sort of spray/contamination. I could find two different types of ciliates. There is also some debris - looks like fuzz/hair which is common as all kinds of things settle into water containers in a house with any upholstery/carpet, etc.

[/quote]
Hi Eric.

Wow that's great news, well the algae arriving in good condition that is . Thanks so much for taking a look and verifying your original ID! It's neat (for me) to see a microscopic image of the algae in my tank, I think I'll actually save the image. I know what ciliates are (after looking it up) but you've made it sound as if that's not natural? I'm assuming what your saying is I have a "parasite" eating away at the algae, I would assume that's a good thing? What I'm confused about is how you reached the conclusion that this is a spray/contamination issue and how ciliates helped you reach this conclusion. The fuzz is likely from the dog, cat, or carpet as you suggested. Do you have any idea what type of "spray/contamination" could have caused this? What I mean is, is there a certain chemical or element that could have assisted in the development of the chrysophyte? I really appreciate you taking a look at the algae and I'm sure Michelle will also appreciate the definite ID.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:53:37 GMT

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:23:36 GMT

I'll let you know when it arrives and take a look immediately and post photos.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:31:59 GMT

OK shipped finally. Hopefully it will be there on Thursday, you never know with USPS? You'll laugh at my packaging when you get it . Thanks for checking it out for me.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 05:14:30 GMT

Still fine, Ryan. Thanks.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:14:43 GMT

Sorry Eric, no internet here today, road construction. I didn't get to see if you replied so I'll try again tomorrow if that works. Let me know if you get a chance and I'll ship tomorrow. Thanks.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 04:18:44 GMT

That works fine for me. Thanks, Ryan.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 09:43:08 GMT

Hi Eric. I'll plan to ship tomorrow if that will work for you? If I ship tomorrow you should have it on Wednesday, hopefully. Please let me know if this won't work and I'll plan on a different date. Thanks.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Tue, 20 May 2008 04:21:33 GMT

No worries, no hurries. For shipping, I would just put a small amount in a plastic screw top jar, loosely wad some well-wetted plastic wrap and fill the remainder of the jar and cap it. That way, the environment is going to be near 100% humidity, lots of oxygen and substrate for it, and likely plenty of water to keep it wet by the surface tension of the algae on the plastic wrap. Insulate well (make sure whatever small styrofoam container you use is sealed with tape - no gaps - and then send second day air. It should be fine.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sun, 18 May 2008 14:21:32 GMT

Hi Eric, I do still have your address. We had some flooding in our house this weekend so I'm not really sure when I'll have a chance to send it? I'll let you know on here when I plan to ship and when it should be to you. When you get a chance can you give me the best method for shipping this stuff? I'm kind of worried about it "melting" during shipping. I've shipped corals and have had pretty good luck with that but I've never tried shipping snot, macro algae yes, snot no . Thanks.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Sat, 17 May 2008 07:12:08 GMT

I'm back, and give me a few days to get the other final tanks finished up and report on it. I'm way behind. In answer to your pm, Ryan, sure you can send me some of the algae. You still have the address and all? Any shipping questions?

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Thu, 15 May 2008 16:38:07 GMT

Thanks for your post! According to Eric that should not cause any issue, but I see where your coming from. I've read a lot of posts on other sites about RC and cyanobacteria or something similar to discount this to "chance". My personal feeling based on Eric's results (correct me if I'm wrong Eric, please) is that RC seems to have either switched suppliers or changed production for their salt mix. There are too many things that don't "match" up with the old RC to say this is something that just happened? I think they made a decision that cost them a lot of money and likely fixed the problem, I mean, who has customers that leave due to batch "call it what you like" and then don't fix the issue? I'm currently about to mix another batch of RC that tested fine per Eric's results, and with no doubt in his results I assume it's fine. I'll never doubt his tests, personally I believe it was the batch that tested like "puddles" that messed up my tank. I have used an entire bucket of Red Sea coral pro and had no issue, the only thing bad about this salt IMO is the magnesium is too low, the calcium and alk are great. Reef Crystals when the batch is "correct" seems to have highish numbers of all three of the goodies when it comes to SPS, but I am very skeptical of using their product again. I will certainly keep you posted of my results.........if only the ocean was closer.

Welcome back Eric!!! Thanks again for all your help with this issue.

RE: Stinky film algae

jonnyloback — Sun, 11 May 2008 19:01:29 GMT

I have two things I would like to add.

1. I have been using RC for 3 years now and for the last 4 months have been having a "thing" in my mixing vate as well. There were a couple of times where I stuck my arm in and pulled out an arm covered with brown dots. I ALWAYS sterilize my arm with soap and vinegar before I get it anywhere near a mixing container. If anything, I MIGHT think the iron (or other mineral deposists) were acting as a whatever it's called, catalyst (?) to help the dino grow. Wasn't there some sort of study done my "slag" or heavy metal and mineral deposits being dumped in to the water? The elevated PH might be precipitating that out.

2. If ANYONE decides to mess with their PH, I know Hannah and Pinpoint both have monitors that are accurate to within a hundredth. The only reason I say this is because it DEFINETELY helps having one that is .01+/- accurate if you are trying to stabalize your PH at 8.4 or 8.5 rather then a test that is accurate to .2+/- accurate. I used calcium hydroxide the first time my tank came down with a case of the dinos and that seemed to work rather well. That an HUGE amounts of carbon changed regularly.

RE: Stinky film algae

Puddles — Sat, 03 May 2008 16:00:14 GMT

Since changing from RC to Coralife, my algae has taking longer to grow back. It's going to take a while for it to totally dissappear. I've been keeping the alk up in my tank and I got my ph up to 8.4.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sat, 03 May 2008 15:38:14 GMT

Thanks for posting! It is a real pain in the butt and I still have quite a bit of it in one of my tanks, the other two are starting to clear up. I still think it must have been something in my bad batch of RC, or maybe it just allowed this algae to thive? Maybe too much of a certain element. Mine has gotten much better since changing salts and I'm not so sure I'll ever dare to use RC again? With that said, Eric's test did not grow any algae........maybe we'll never know the cause? Good luck with your battle.

RE: Stinky film algae

ReefNut — Sat, 03 May 2008 10:10:24 GMT

Just stumbled upon this thread, same problem I have been having and just used up the last of my RC mix.
I read all the info on salt mix until my head hurt, I am now using a mix of Seachem regular, Corallife and Kent
trying to get the best of each. It has only been a couple of weeks, so the Stinky Film Algae has not subsided yet.
Nothing Good ever happens fast in this hobby
But bad things happen overnight
Or so it appears.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 11:23:02 GMT

A good sterilizer is 91% isopropyl (from drugstores, etc.) or 190 proof ethanol (liquor stores). It evaporates fast and will dehydrate, fix or kill just about anything. Bleach is not a good choice because it has a high surface tension and is hard to rinse off. But, it does sterilize well - just make sure there is no smell and the sides literally squeak when you rub a damp paper towel against the sides

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:15:46 GMT

Thanks Eric, all of that makes sense. I think what you said about the container becoming seeded with algae is my problem, I just can't seem to kill it or the container is continuously becoming reseeded? My container is in the same room as my tank, along with a lot of other containers that have never had this algae in them....this is what's confusing me. I also have a litter box for our cat in that room and I've thought more than once that could be the cause of the problems but it's always been in the same room. This problem started with the "bad" salt I had, it had really low calcium and alk. and was basically the same as Puddles. You can see how we came up with the salt as the problem? It just made the most sense. I'm going to do a test similar to yours with water in jars or containers of some sort, one sealed tightly, the other open and leave them in my "fish room".

Interestingly since I stopped using the "bad" salt, all the snot has gone away in my reef tank. I am still getting a ton of diatom like algae growth but the chrysophytes seem to be gone, hopefully?

I also just finished sterilizing the container again, I used a gallon of bleach, followed by a rinse, then I left the container filled with fresh water and dechlorinator. I'm going to try putting the container in another room to see if the container stays clean.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:05:17 GMT

Ryan, I'm probably not going to be able to make it back to this thread for awhile and Chuck will be minding the board. Where is your container?

Puddles, yes, I think there is a lot of airborne material, but also, all we have to do is put our hands in the tank, walk around, let them air dry or even paper towel dry, and there will still be viable marine bacteria and algae on them. Then, you grab the scoop and dip into the salt, pour it in the mixing container, and swirl it with your hand. That or any number of scenarios would effectively seed a container. As for airbornes, think backyard ponds. Fill a container - or a pool - with water and you get algae. You could fill with distilled water and you'd still wind up having to clean the pool or pond. Same with aquariums. Think old marine aquariums before live rock, corals, etc. You add salt, water, and then come home with a fish. Algae. I'm quite sure you could get algae and cyanobacteria in a tank by using salt, distilled water and lighting it. I did this years ago and got bountiful diatoms in tanks with nothing but saltwater, but I also had other tanks in the house. Was it airborne, airborne as a result of having other tanks, accidental by my hands or equipment? I don't know.

As for the reactions of each of your tanks to the brand, and the bloom or bust of one type of algae/cyanobacteria over another, there are too many variables to address, not the least of which could be the obvious batch inconsistency of, it seems, all salts available. If it was consistent and everyone had similar findings/reports, then it would be easier to start to look at teasing out variables and forming hypotheses and testing. Anyway, food for thought. Be back on the thread as soon as I can.

RE: Stinky film algae

Puddles — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:26:37 GMT

Ryan you beat me in asking that question! My green brute container that I use on my porch for the summer has been algae free now for 2 weeks, but the container in the bathroom (with what's left of my RC) is growing the same thing as your container. I'm wondering if it's something air born. With my new test kits, I'm getting nearly the same reading as Eric on the RC, My old kits were expired. I looked at the expiration date, kind a hard to read them.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:01:22 GMT

Thanks Eric. Now I'm really confused though . I stopped using the bucket that compared to Puddles and actually dumped it because I was positive it was causing the algae. Since I stopped using the salt the slime on the rocks has gone away but the algae on the tank walls is growing like crazy still.

I have a question for you, like I haven't asked enough. I'm having a really hard time keeping my SW mixing bin clean from algae, I don't know what the cause is at this point. Everything I use has been cleaned with bleach and it still comes back. I cannot keep SW for 2 days without brown algae growing all over the container. It's a Rubbermaid Brute container so I know that's not the issue. I also know my water RO/DI is fine (tested with TDS meter). I am totally lost on this one. I have other containers (5 gallon ) that I mix SW in and I can leave that for a week and no algae grows. Apparently I'm not getting the mixing bin sterile or something is getting introduced through the air? How do you suggest I sterilize the container? I also will need to sterilize a pump and a heater, will whatever you suggest work for those? Thanks, sorry for all the questions.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:42:25 GMT

OK, long enough on the jar test. Distilled water, sterile jars, capped and in the light - no algae growth in Ryan's, puddle's or my jars.

Will post more on corals in tanks in mid- May

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:47:59 GMT

Thanks Eric, looks like puddles has a bad batch for sure. That was the same issue I had with calcium and alk but I was refunded for that bucket and just dumped it because I thought it was causing algae, maybe it was? Thanks for doing the testing and I kind of hope some algae gets going in those jars . Thanks again!

RE: Stinky film algae

Puddles — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:46:58 GMT

guess I'm going to have to switch my test kits. Mine were reading higher than what your stating. What brand of kits do you use? My last results were using API. I'm wondering if the low ph,alk is causing the issue.

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:37:22 GMT

oh, also quantitative:

solution: clear or cloudy
precipitates: suspended, undissolved, or none

mean (n=16)
solution: 16/16 clear
precipitates: 10/16 had undissolved precipitates, 6 had none
my current batch: clear and none
puddles: clear and none
Ryan: clear and none

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:34:42 GMT

yep - some. The jars are still sitting for algal development or anything else and I have set up one tank for the first batch with a control to see effects on some corals. I want to give it some time to see anything significant. Nothing yet.

chemical wise: 3.5g/100ml in sterile closed top container with distilled water stirred 30 minutes on stir plate

salinity:
mean for Reef Crystals (n=16) 30.666ppt, range 29-33ppt
my current batch 31ppt
puddles: 31ppt
Ryan: 31ppt

pH
mean for Reef Crystals (n=16): 8.09, range 7.94-8.25
my current batch: 8.21
puddles: 8.22
Ryan: 8.31

Calcium
mean for Reef Crystals (n=16) 390ppt, range: 330-450
my current batch: 365
puddles: 290
Ryan: 345

alkalinity
mean for Reef Crystals (n=16): 2.75meq/l, range 1.6-4.8
my current batch: 2.63
puddles: 3.89
Ryan: 4.27

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:02:48 GMT

Hi Eric, just wondering if you have anymore results on the salt? Thanks!

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:44:47 GMT

Just an update, it's getting worse, after less than a week my tank is totally covered in brown junk, enough to the point you can hardly see in the tank. I did notice something different this time, I have more of the standard brown dots in some spots, the spots that are hard to remove, the bad stuff comes off pretty easily. Is it possible it's attracted to plastic? It seems like it grows more on my tank sides (acrylic) and anything else plastic in the tank (frag tray). Likely reason it's getting worse, I have not changed the purigen or rowaphos in a while due to corals fading in color. I also noticed a increase in cyanobacteria indicating my PO4 levels have raised, tomorrow I'll be changing the media in the reactor (purigen, rowaphos, carbon).

On a side note, I noticed today a monti cap is having a major issue, it appears totally bleached (one area), either stung or I DO HAVE A PEST PROBLEM.....I'll investigate that tomorrow as well.

Oh yes, I got the Red Sea salt in, I just mixed a batch and will test as soon as it's sufficiently mixed and airated.

Thanks for listening

RE: Stinky film algae

Puddles — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 14:14:13 GMT

Thanks Eric for getting back to us. I've been caught up doing stuff with my daughter. In your opinion, would you say this salt is still OK to use?

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:20:06 GMT

Thanks for the update Eric! So after doing a google search on some of the words you used , I think I have the basic idea of what your saying? Your saying our salts very a lot in size compared to your 1 year old salt, which I assume leads you to believe they are using a different supplier or the supplier has changed manufacturing to some extent? You then said the salt so hygroscopic that it was desolving in front of you on the scope. After googling that word I found it means that the salt was so dry it was pulling in moisture from the air and disolving. Then you mention the brown dots are most likely salt containing large amounts of iron (I assume large amounts), which again leads you to believe there may be an issue with the supplier of the salt or supplier of the ingredients? Basically what I gather from everything you said is that it seems the supplier of the salt has either changed their manufacturing process or Aquarium Systems has a new supplier, either that or their supplier has had issues with their manufacturing process leaving the potential for the salt to be contaminated. I'll freely admit I am not on "your level" so I'm doing my best to understand all this chemistry stuff . If I'm wrong with anything I said please let me know. Also about the salt growing algae out of the bag, that really does not surprise me, what really surprised me is that it did so in complete darkness in a sterile container. I'm assuming based on your ID of the algae that this is bacterial as well as algal which helps explain why it grows in the dark. I am excited to hear any other results you come up with! Thanks again for taking your time to do this test!

RE: Stinky film algae

Eric Borneman — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:19:10 GMT

I got both your salts and looked at them under the scope and compared them to a 150 gallon container of RC I have here and have been using for well over a year without issue.

The salt crystals in both your samples are similar but a lot more heterogenous in size compared to mine. There is variation in size in mine, too, but both of yours have very different crystal sizes although are uniform in shape. The crystals were so hygroscopic they were moving and dissolving in the air as I looked at them, and the salt appears very dry in the bag. I reheated to drive off water and did not see recrystallization occurring in a way that would account for the variance so I assume these are just different salts mixed together (could be wrong, because as salts melt as they absorb water they can use other crystals as nuclei for crystallization, making the other crystal larger).

Puddles, your dark spots are also salt crystals, and without pulling the few that were in the sample, I would suspect they are iron-containing salts (source is\sues?). As you mention in your note, they are soluble,and I don't see that there is enough material there to cause an issue, but contaminants suggest again a sourcing issue. That's it for the update for now. Will check chemistry and effects on clones over the nextfew days.

Ryan - glad you noted that salts straight from the bag can grow algae. Amazing, huh?

As for Ca, I never tested SeaChem, but Oceanic was always way off the scale with calcium. Way way too high.

RE: Stinky film algae

charlesr1958 — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 02:59:02 GMT

The bubbles are oxygen produced by photosynthesis.

Chuck

RE: Stinky film algae

Puddles — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:28:39 GMT

Hey guys. The big tank the stuff is hanging in there like a hang nail. I did notice something tonite when I went to shut my actinics off. The algae has like these little bubbles on it . Kind of like champagne bubbles not a lot of them. Really fine. Is the stuff creating a gas by chance? I don't notice any smell from the tank.

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:43:48 GMT

I thought I'd give everyone an update. I have talked with "Puddles" and she has not seen a decrease or increase in algae even after switching salts, although I'm not sure how much she actually used. I have not switched (bucket of Red sea on the way) but did do a large water change a week or so ago. The thing that really bothers me is this, "Puddles" did a test in her home, she used two 10 gallon tanks, one with the Reef Crystals, one with the Seachem, the Seachem grew no algae, the Reef Crystals did, my experience is the same, my mixing bin is full of brown algae and will need to be sterilized AGAIN before making any saltwater. The montipora tuberculosa seems to have recovered after the iodine swab, the acropora was not so lucky. My tank seems to be consistantly the same, WC or none, the brown algae persists but does not seem to get any worse. I have not done many water changes and it seems the less I do the better off I am? My skimmer is full after a day or two (Euroreef RS-135) and yet my PO4 is 0 on test kits and my nitrates are 0 or extemely close. All of my corals have gone "pastel" because of the nutrient free environment. I have Xenia, it does not spread at all, over a year and a few months, it has done very little, it's living but not thriving. My chaeto is growing very fast lately as well as the halimeda, nutrient related? I am so confused about this it makes my head spin but we'll see after I get the new salt. Eric thank you for all your help and testing, no reply to this is needed, just thought I'd give readers an update.

RE: Stinky film algae

Puddles — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:10:50 GMT

It's really the only way they can keep cost down for the consumers,but they really should up QC. I've been hearing that Seachem has been having a few issues with super high Ca. Over 500 ppm. If I go with a salt that has low Ca and Alk, I don't mind doing supplementation. I have the stuff to help raise the Ca and Alk for future use. The one question I have is, if it is the water I use for my makeup SW, wouldn't I be experiencing similar issues in my FW tanks too? It's only happening in my SW tanks. I don't know. We'll see.

RE: Stinky film algae

BrianPlankis — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:43:50 GMT

I spoke with a LFS manager recently and he said that many salts are manufactured by the same manufacturer in China now, maybe at even the same facility? The list included:

Instant Ocean, Reef Crystals, Kent, Oceanic and Corallife salts. Anyway, in the last few months he has had several of his customers complaining about formulation being off (low Alk, High Ca, strange color of newly mixed salt).

Now I have not worked to independently verify his information, but I do vaguely remember hearing something about Kent being purchased by the same manufacturer as IO and RC and that production would be at one facility.

Brian

RE: Stinky film algae

RyanNi — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:30:13 GMT

Thanks Eric! It does seem as though every salt has it's flaw, and after reading nearly all day yesterday I just confused myself even more. According to what I've read there is definitely no perfect salt. I did see you were "kind of" saying some good things about Red Sea in your M.A.R.S.H project. Your package will be going out shortly. Thanks again for your opinion on the salt at least, it surely helps.