Marine Depot Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman / Dianoflagellates, need some advice. / Latest Posts

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:26:25 GMT

Hey Eric, I did not notice any reaction in the GSP's after the "paint job" on the acropora or montipora. As far as I can tell the Lugols did not do anything to the GSP's? I've got enough water made up to do a 40 percent water change, I will also apply the epoxy "bandaid" when changing the water. I'm a little hesistant on changing the Rowaphos since my corals already appear quite "pastel". I think my nutrient level is getting really low due to all the wet skimming, carbon changes, Purigen, etc. Since this algae is still hanging around I suppose I'll do one more large change of the Rowaphos and then go back to changing a smaller quantity. If this large water change and PO4 remover change do not really make a dramatic difference I think I'll be switching salts to see if that does me any good? Thank you for all your time and help on this!!! I think I have things in order to hopefully get things back on the right track, I'll definitely keep you updated on any progress. Thanks again.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:00:09 GMT

>>Hi Eric, thanks for the reply. To answer your question about the GSP's they were not dipped in iodine, I'm not overly concerned about saving them. <<

No, what I found was when it was common practice to "supplement" iodine, and Lugol's had become the "iodine supplement of choice." I found that the GSPs responded very poorly to it and closed for extended periods of time. I am wondering if the previous effective use of Lugol's for the other corals had this secondary effect on the GSPs just by being in the water. I don't blame you much for not being concerned with them. They are pretty, but are kind of a nightmare over time unless isolated from overgrowing everything.

>> The algae seems to like growing on the mat of the GSP's which causes them to recede and eventually disappear. <<

Yes, this is common, too.

>>I'm not sure why the algae seems to thrive on the GSP's more than any other coral?<<

The mat - the stolons are porous and there is not a lot of mucus production.

>> I had them growing all over the back wall of the tank, not anymore, they are still on a rock but slowly fading away. I found this interesting because I thought they were one of the more hardy corals, apparently not in this situation. <<

They are hardy - for beginners. They tend to do well in conditions that do not favor growth of other species, like low nutrient stony-coral dominated reefs.

>> Your right about the acropora, it was damaged by a montipora but had no chance of healing with the algae on it. I waited a long time to see if it would heal but the area seemed to spread rather than shrink. The digitata I'm still blaming on reduces flow. The other coral appeared healthy until recently, not sure why it got attacked by this algae?<<

That's what algae does, and it loves dead coral skeleton.

>> I'm concerned about saving the corals but can't come up with a good solution. The next thing I'm going to try is covering the affected areas with super glue since they're dead anyway. I'll leave the digitata be since I have several frags doing well.<<

On the dead areas, I would use epoxy to cover the area. Its hardness and smoothness is better at keeping filamentous algae from adhering than superglue is. Sometimes superglue "bandaids" are a better solution, and sometimes epoxy "bandaids" are better. In your case (the Acropora), I think the epoxy "bandaid" would be better.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:47:49 GMT

Eric Borneman (3/24/2008)

Looks like several possible things in the photos. Bleaching-related mortality with diatom film in the digitata, brown jelly or chrysophytes in the "tubeculosa," and an "I can't tell" in the Acropora (possible prior damage and recovery with some algal growth? It looks like a place where a branch was beginning to fuse with substrate and then was broken free).

Can you explain the GSP "hit" in more detail? I'm not picturing it, and I know I had a very negative response from Lugol's use with GSPs that I wrote about years ago.

Hi Eric, thanks for the reply. To answer your question about the GSP's they were not dipped in iodine, I'm not overly concerned about saving them. The algae seems to like growing on the mat of the GSP's which causes them to recede and eventually disappear. I'm not sure why the algae seems to thrive on the GSP's more than any other coral? I had them growing all over the back wall of the tank, not anymore, they are still on a rock but slowly fading away. I found this interesting because I thought they were one of the more hardy corals, apparently not in this situation. Your right about the acropora, it was damaged by a montipora but had no chance of healing with the algae on it. I waited a long time to see if it would heal but the area seemed to spread rather than shrink. The digitata I'm still blaming on reduces flow. The other coral appeared healthy until recently, not sure why it got attacked by this algae? I'm concerned about saving the corals but can't come up with a good solution. The next thing I'm going to try is covering the affected areas with super glue since they're dead anyway. I'll leave the digitata be since I have several frags doing well.

Any help you can offer to help save the corals, or give them a better chance at recovering would be great! Thanks again, Ryan.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 04:48:58 GMT

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:59:58 GMT

Well the iodine definitely cleaned them off really well, hopefully I didn't kill anything other than the algae. Turns out the montipora was dead (not digitata) under the surface of the algae too. I had a thought about that montipora that I did not think of until I moved it, there is a large favites within 5 inches or so of it, it's possible that a sweeper tentacle stung the coral leaving a spot for the algae to take hold, I'm not sure why algae would grow on it if it was healthy. Interstingly, the coral that is taking the biggest hit from this algae is my GSP's located far away from any of these corals, it grows over the mat and the coral slowly recedes away. I'm preparing to do a massive water change of at least 30 percent in the next few days, maybe more than that?

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:31:49 GMT

Ok, here's the pictures. First is the digitata, I'm not sure what caused the tissue recession but I'm sure I do not have pests that are eating it. I have not added anything in a long time. Second is the acropora, very easy to see where it was damaged and where the algae is. Lastly is the montipora tuberculosa, it's harder to see because my acrylic has this nasty algae on it. If you look at the right side of the montipora you can see where it has the algae on it. This coral appeared totally healthy, it's also in high flow which would lead me to believe this should not have happened to this coral? I'm kind at the point where I need to do something to help the corals, I think they need some sort of help to get over this? I think I may try the iodine on the acropora today and see if it helps. The monti tuberculosa will be cleaned and relocated. Thanks for your help, this is getting really frustrating.....could always be worse though. Thanks again.

Montipora digitata

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/RyanSc_photos/IMG_2193.jpg

Acropora

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/RyanSc_photos/IMG_2194.jpg

Tuberculosa

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/RyanSc_photos/IMG_2196.jpg

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 07:13:52 GMT

photos would be great. Thanks, Ryan.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 05:51:12 GMT

Hey Eric, thanks for the reply on the salt. Back to the algae, it's the same stuff I've been fighting, the brown slime stuff. You ID'd it, I can't remember the name at the moment. One Acropora fell on a montipora and I believe that's how it became injured but I'm not positive. One montipora (another one) digitata is receding in one area due to a change in flow (my best guess). The change in flow happened because my montipora caps are growing like weeds and blocking some flow. The montipora tuburculosa (sp?) just seems to have this algae attached to living tissue, this coral is in a high flow area and still seems to have been "attacked" by this algae.

Right now my main concern is fixing my calcium and alk, they have both fallen to levels that are too low in my opinion. I'm hoping that by raising the numbers on the alk and calcium this algae will fade and give way to something better....I can hope . My kalkwasser reactor can no longer keep up with the tank, my calcium is at 330, my alk is pretty good but after adding calcium I'm sure it's lower than when I tested, it was at 8 dkh when tested.

I really don't want to lose any corals over this and if you would like pictures of the corals, please let me know. Thank you!

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 05:26:04 GMT

I wouldn't be surprised if any particular batch of salt was way off in parameters or source material was contaminated, but its not the salt brand unless it has changed dramatically in the past two years - which is a possibility. Tropic Marin is fine - not as good as I thought, but fine. Have not used SeaChem in tests. Red Sea performed well.

Anyway, to the real issue. What is growing on the injured corals? I assume algae from later in the paragraph. What kind of algae? If not algae, what is it?

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:12:37 GMT

Hey again, thought I'd give an update and ask you for advice on something. I am 99% sure this was caused by a bad batch of salt. I've talked to a friend who uses the same salt, which tested poorly for calcium, like mine did, she has the exact same algae as me. I doubt this is coincidence? All my money was refunded for the bucket of salt, calcium tested at 310 when it should have been over 400. I still have a bucket of the same brand of salt, it tested OK for calcium but I am really reluctant to use it. I know the low calcium did not cause the algae, I do believe something else in the salt caused the problem and am worried the other bucket will just continue causing problems. Since this is all over the internet anyway, it's Reef Crystals salt. I am seriously considering switching to something else, probably Tropic Marin or Seachem, what do you think of those two? The problem has not gone away but has not become worse, probably because whatever's fueling it is being removed via skimming?

Anyway, I have another small problem, it's starting to grow on some corals, especially corals that were injured........acropora fell on a montipora. It seems to also be growing on a healthy montipora which really has me concerned. I cannot blow it off, I thought that would work but it sticks pretty good. A thought I had from your suggestion to me a long time ago was to "paint" any damaged areas with Lugols iodine. I'm hoping this would kill the algae and give the coral a chance to grow over the infected area? What about the healthy montipora, should I do a iodine dip and see if that takes care of the algae?

What a pain, and I feel it could have been avoided by buying a better salt. Thanks for all your help, Ryan.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 12:30:01 GMT

No, it doesn't. The cells need a microscope, but keep us posted if it spreads or ceases improving.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 12:16:37 GMT

Hi, I'm back again. It's been a few days since I've wiped the tank down, I thought I would share this picture with you. This seems to be how all of this started. I noticed my tank was getting covered very quickly with this algae, then I noticed it in other areas. It is not nearly as bad as it was, but I was wondering if this image would make you confident in your ID? You can see the "strands" and O2 bubbles coming off the "dot". Thought I'd share just in case this is something that would help?

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/RyanSc_photos/IMG_2156.jpg

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 14:25:13 GMT

Hey everyone! Just as an update on what's happening I thought I would post this. It seems to be fading away already. I really haven't done anything but try and clean up the easy to reach areas, removed some halimeda to increase flow in dead spots, and added a new batch of Rowaphos, carbon, and Purigen in the reactor. Looks like I may got this battle won easily? I've also been skimming extra wet, I have not performed a water change yet since I suspect that has something to do with this (salt mix). I may have lucked out? I've had this a while (few months) but I was trying to beat some Cyanobacteria at the same time, perhaps my actions against that have taken a toll on this other algae/bacteria as well?

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 05:35:38 GMT

Thanks Eric! That sounds a lot better than dianoflagellates to me. I've been turning the pumps off and removing some rocks giving them a good cleaning. I'll continue doing this until the problem clears, if it does clear? Something interesting that came from this, my Cyanobacteria (also a mild case) that I've had for over a year, seems to be going away, finally. Due to more skimming, higher Ph or alk., who knows? Thanks for all your help, I'll let you know if I totally get rid of the problem.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 05:01:27 GMT

Thanks! So, if these are chrysophytes, you can pretty much look forward to this sort of population pattern, unlike the putative "other" dinoflagellates that paralyze and then kill almost all snails, cover every surface like a golden mat of bubble trapping snot, and are more problematic. These might be best just siphoned straight of the rock with a syringe as the cells are loosely bound in a polysaccharide matrix, then give the attachment point a little scrub with a toothbrush.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:07:12 GMT

Hey again! I just contacted the retailer of the salt to check if it's part of the "bad batch" that was sent out a few months ago, I have a good feeling it is. I, like an idiot, trust the company making the synthetic salt mix and don't test it. I will always test from now on. With that said, I am not confident this is a issue with the salt, however, this all seemed to happen when I started a new bucket of salt. Water changes do not seem to make any kind of impact against this algae/bacteria, of course I may be using bad salt, I'll figure that out within 24 hours. I have seen no progression since I started this thread, I have done no water changes as of yet, I have added no carbon (was already in place), and have changed nothing else. Whatever this is, and Eric I believe your right, it seems to be self limiting in my tank. I have on accident had it flying all over the tank and it does not seem to take hold anywhere but the few locations it's in. I will continue to keep this updated, and Eric I really appreciate a more appropriate ID than what I had! Thank you very much for all your help over the past couple years. You've saved some corals for me using methods I would never try without your advice. For example, PAINTING a brain coral with Lugols iodine, that exact coral is now thriving in two locations, one here, one on the opposite side of the US. I've asked plenty of questions on this site, you have never let me down and it's about time I truly thanked you for your kind assistance. Thanks, Ryan.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

jonnyloback — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:05:04 GMT

My opinion means little if nothing, I just have not been in the hobby that long. But I can say for 99.9% sure that actual dinoflagellates absolutely THRIVE off of higher silica levels as well as natural sunlight. I had some completely covering the inside of a 55 gallon. Just brown, globby, slimey, mess that matted over the bottom of the aquarium, sides, LR, etc like a sheet of plastic wrap sucking in every bubble that it could.

When it started dying off, I added about 15 pounds of high silica dry sand to a 20 gallon tank that I transfered substrate and water over from. The stuff bloomed like crazy. Then I did the same with another tank and sat it in direct sunlight. It seemed to be one of the highest light dependent algae I have ever seen in my life. The 20 gallon tank in the sunlight is still growing strong after 4 months; while the other 20 gallon died off long ago.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:38:50 GMT

Thanks Eric, sorry about the flu, seems to be getting a lot of people lately. No problem on the delay either, the tank has had this problem for a while. So based on what I read it seems this type of algae/bacteria build their skeletons of silica? This would explain the large amount of diatom growth on my glass as well. I think I know the problem, I've been questioning a bucket of salt for a while, I believe this is the cause and high silica levels may be the issue with it? I don't have a test kit for silicates and I may be way off in my "diagnosis" but it seems logical to me. I'll stop using this bucket of salt and try something else, maybe that's all it will take to get this under control? FYI I have added nothing to the tank that caused this bloom, no new LR or anything. My RO/DI water is fine according to my TDS meter so the only thing left is my salt in my opinion. Thanks again for your help and hopefully it's just the bucket of salt causing the problems. Reef Crystals BTW.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

fazgood — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:44:45 GMT

I had a bloom of Dinos a few months back. I agree with your slow and easy strategy, it worked for me. I also tried to vacuum as much out as possible when doing water changes. A brush on the end of my siphon did the trick and it also removed the material I think was the root of the problem. I found a fine dust under the material I removed and cleaned it off with the brush then with a slight pressure from a power head. I also added a phosphate reactor, increased the amount of carbon and the frequency that I changed it.

One other question, how old is your tank and have you added any new rock lately? My bloom started a month and a half after I added some new live rock.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Faz

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:10:03 GMT

Sorry for the delay - have had the flu for five days and could barely function.

I don't see why you couldn't run all three together. The photos are helpful, but lead me even more to question if these are dinoflagellates and not chyrsophytes given their color, appearance, patchy upright accumulations on dead substrate. In any case, the management advice remains the same, but even if they are chrysophytes, they can still produce polar toxins. The toxins for various marine chrysophyes, however, are much less well-studied than those of other harmful algae, primarily the cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates.

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 11:41:34 GMT

Hi again. I just bought some Purigen online because no one in this area carries anything. Anyway, since I'm running carbon, Rowaphos and will be running Purigen I was wondering if it would be most effective to run all three in my phosban reactor? One last question, the directions say to use 100ml per 100 gallons, I'm guessing I have 100 gallons? Should I go overboard or just stick to the directions? I think I bought enough to last the rest of my life

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:50:52 GMT

As you can see it's definitely not the typical diano case? Very limited in where it's growing and not the regular "strings". Hope this helps, best I can do with my point and shoot camera.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/RyanSc_photos/IMG_2149.jpg

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/RyanSc_photos/IMG_2148.jpg

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:33:19 GMT

Hi Eric, that was a fast reply! I do not have a microscope unfortunately, and my phosphate levels are 0 according to a Salifert test kit and a Red Sea test kit. My phosphate levels have always been near or at 0 (according to test kits). I suspect the phosphate level is higher than what my test kits are showing me. I have begun aggressive skimming, one collection cup per day (which on my skimmer is a LOT of skimmate). I will do a large water change as soon as I can and see if that takes care of the problem once and for all? I will also go shopping for some Purigen or something similar today and get that into the tank as soon as possible. Thanks for your help! I'll post a picture of what I'm dealing with, just in case it's something else. The snail death thing kind of made me "sure" it was dianoflagellates?

RE: Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

Eric Borneman — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:01:07 GMT

Do you have a microscope? I wouldn't be convinced just yet but the snail death does perhaps point to toxic algae bloom. What are your phosphate levels? Certainly I would use as much carbon and perhaps other adsorbents (Polyfilter,Purigen, etc.) to try and deal with the saxitoxin. Even though not a protein, they have variable polarity so skimming should also be effective. Anyway,to get rid of them, I still know of no sure cure but greatly upsetting the nutrient balance of the tank theoretically is the best answer and probably the best way to do this is huge water changes. Reactive species might help too (i.e. ozone). I am shying away from my previous advice I have given about changing pH and raising alkalinity because it seems so anecdotal and I can never say for sure that is what eliminated them when I had them and am stepping foot out into a bit of theory here based on more recent works with harmful algal blooms.

Dianoflagellates, need some advice.

RyanNi — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:27:42 GMT

Hi Eric, I'm having a small problem with dianoflagellates in my reef tank and also in my anemone tank. In both tanks it seems to be struggling to survive? It's there but doesn't seem to spread but won't go away either. I'm trying to come up with the best solution to fix this problem but there are so many different approaches I'm not sure which one to take. I don't feel like doing anything totally drastic is called for, and hopefully that does not become necessary? It's growing in a few spots but doesn't really seem to grow, it just persists. My water parameters are as follows: Nitrate .05, nitrite 0, ammonia 0, phosphate 0 (per Salifert), calcium is low at 330 (on purpose), alk. 12 Dkh (one way I'm trying to fight this), temp. 79, SG 1.026, Mg 1300 (just raised to this from 1100), Ph 8.2. I have read a lot of articles about beating this "algae" and have decided to take a couple of the less drastic measures. I'm raising my alkalinity in hopes of raising my Ph, I'm also running a lot of carbon and Rowaphos to pull out any impurities and lingering phosphates. The only other algae in my system is Halimeda and Chaetomorpha both of which are there on purpose. I'm not sure if pruning the Halimeda would help me or hurt me? It's using up the calcium and alk. but it's also removing some nutrients, less than the chaeto but I imagine it's helping to a degree. It took me some time to figure out what I was dealing with, it's not the usual long stringy dianoflagellates, but it's more like "globs" of goo. These globs do contain the bubbles associated with dianoflagellates, and recently I've had a few snails die, so I'm sure dianoflagellates are what I'm dealing with. I'm sure you know the ways of beating this? Number one method that seems to work is turning the lights off for a week, but in a reef tank that seems like a last resort and I'm not to that point yet.

I guess if you could offer any advice on what you would do in my case I would really appreciate it. Thanks, Ryan.

If you need any pictures please let me know and I'll quickly post them. Thanks again.