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RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Sweet Reefer — Fri, 02 May 2008 07:17:13 GMT

Wow, great information. Just what I was hoping for thanks a lot! I have been working on a single all-in-one fuge since initial setup with fauna seeding from a few sources and have various copepods, amphipods, isopods, polychaetes, and unidentified round worms. Even some kind of medusae.

The ecology aspect is what got me into it. I tell "normal" people that I have a 90 gallon tank with a bunch of side tanks in the works and without exception the first thing they say is "wow, how many fish are you going to have?" I say, "well, maybe 3 or 4 eventually in a year or so."

Take it easy, and thanks.

(That's kind of a joke from someone who lives in the Midwest and has only seen the ocean once)

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Fri, 02 May 2008 04:20:52 GMT

Sweet Reefer (5/1/2008)

Yup, you got it. Granted, for such detritus to be of benefit to the entire system, it should act as not only a food source for bacteria/fungus but hopefully as many of the seagrass sandbed infauna as well, which in turn, through their multiplying and being spread through the system will go to feed the upper levels of the food chain/web(s). Of course some of the detritus is going to end up down between the larger grains of a seagrass sandbed but it too will go towards feeding its infauna also, most likely copepods and nematodes. Since the copepods are most numerous in a larger grained sandbed (they need more water between the grains which in turn holds more oxygen) they will most likely be most abundant in the seaweed tank with nematodes/polychaetes being most abundant in the seagrass tank. But.. thats the tricky part for those that have to purchase livesand as it is pretty much a crap shoot as to what you will or will not get within the livesand. Harpacticoid copepods can be bought which would be suitable for the seagrass tank. The upside to livesand is that with nematodes being so greatly abundant, it would be hard to not get those within a fine grained livesand, for the seagrass, as for the multitudes of other species, thats the crap shoot part of it.

I am very new to this, but am trying to anticipate how it will work to avoid major overhauls later on since I have a lot of time on my hands waiting for tank adolescence (I'm about 3 months in). Thank you very much for the advice!

You are most welcome and I am glad to see you taking the effort to think through the biology of such a system and not be one of those that run out and slap an aquarium together and start stocking it with the cast from "finding nemo" the next day.

Another thing I wonder, since you are studying a fringing reef lacking a true lagoon (I gather), where would a lagoon tank with patch reef fit in do you think?

With what little I do know of lagoons, that would be a tough one as there are many different "types" of lagoons, could be mangrove mud or a course grained, coral covered substrate and on and on. I would let the substrate dicatate where it would fit in. A fine grained or "mud" sediment would fall into the seagrass catagory whereas a boulder or solid limestone bedrock would fall into the coral display catagory and anywhere inbetween as there is just so many, many variations that can be had/found with any "theme".

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Sweet Reefer — Thu, 01 May 2008 19:16:33 GMT

Interesting, so the larger particulates would better serve the seagrass tank? I suppose that would have the added benefit of not overloading the more porous (holey?) rubble bed maybe since the particulates would remain on the surface of the fine sand to be processed by creatures. I am very new to this, but am trying to anticipate how it will work to avoid major overhauls later on since I have a lot of time on my hands waiting for tank adolescence (I'm about 3 months in). Thank you very much for the advice!

Another thing I wonder, since you are studying a fringing reef lacking a true lagoon (I gather), where would a lagoon tank with patch reef fit in do you think?

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Thu, 01 May 2008 05:30:25 GMT

Thanks, am glad you find the articles of interest/use. With regards to dissolved nutrients, it would not matter which tank got first crack at the water exiting the coral display tank as it all is relatively small amounts of water and if one tank missed a bit on the first go around, it will soon have another crack at it. But... I would prefer to have a seagrass tank directly after the coral display simply for detritus settlement which would better emulate the natural beds / processes, with a macroalgae tank following it with a ATS being last, last because the filamentous algae are very good at catching detritus and sediment and would rather have those (or most of the) particulates put to use where they would do the most good.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Sweet Reefer — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:51:44 GMT

Hi, new to the forum and debated whether to start a new topic. Seems to fit better with this thread. I am glad to have found your series of articles going into this topic in great detail as I am currently setting up a system of interconnected tanks such as you suggest.

I came upon the idea convergently, stemming from enthusiasm for the refugium concept combined with a basement setup and extreme geekiness. Infrastructure is a 90g display with tanks on either side mostly 20's totaling about 220g. (Three water levels counting sump)

The flow on either side will cross a water bridge to same level on top layer of tanks then overflow at the end of the line, gravity feed the next layer and so on to the sump and return pumps. All circulation until corals get big will be via return flow through a distribution manifold on the DT. At first I planned on the usually suggested gravity feed fuge->DT but decided against it for several reasons I won't go into unless anyone is interested.

Now, at first upon reading your articles, I thought maybe I should emulate the perceived natural system and let the DT water run first over a turf algae scrubber, then seagrass tank, then macro/rubble, etc. I wonder what your thoughts are on the placement of these habitats in relation to each other within the cultured ecosystem.

I am leaning towards the idea that within the tiny volume all will interact simultaneously and maybe other considerations should take precedence. For example the turf scrubber would be more conveniently located off line on its own closed loop returning to the sump, at the end of the line instead of the beginning, given its special requirements of flow and air interface. Also, perhaps the first habitat in line ought to be the live rock rubble and macro so that large particulate matter can feed pods and create useful sediments that may make it into the next habitat which I think would be the seagrass/deep sand bed tank.

I feel that this progression would essentially sort the particulate matter so each habitat receives that which is most useful to it and as a whole the series of refugiums would act as a recycling facility, turning the leftover coral and fish food into plankton.

Any thoughts you or any readers have would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 02:37:03 GMT

Thanks. Had to take a break and pop in. As Eric mentioned I was in the water all day yesterday collecting specimens for the next article and am finding that macroalgae, in all their diversity, are no less complex. Which makes me wonder why they are known as "simple". Read a hundred published papers and then try to make that statement... I'll never take my macroalgae refugium for granted again, or just toss in any old species either, in fact, after studying the last three "zones" its obvious that one can not look at a single organism let alone a habitat and expect to see a 1-2-3 progression of facts or events, its more like 1-2 add four subtract 6 and do the dosey doe while rubbing your belly.

To try and keep on subject (seagrass), I did find by chance some additional information I will include that involves Iron's ability to reduce sulfur compounds in carbonate sediments that was shown to have a significant healthy affect on seagrass. But I do have to investigate any possible down-sides to Iron addition so as not to sugar coat a known benefit.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Eric Borneman — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:29:08 GMT

Chuck's going to be out collecting and doing work this week, largely for the next part of this series which I am sure will be equally impressive.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

sltloser — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:47:44 GMT

Got done reading this a few days ago, and another awsome article Chuck. Thanks for all the info!! will there be more parts to this?

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 08:38:47 GMT

By all means, please do and Thanks!

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Eric Borneman — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 07:53:42 GMT

Chuck, with your permission, I would like to stick this thread at the top. The page is fantastic!

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 07:14:38 GMT

Being on topic and all, thought I would use this thread to post a link to The Grass is always Greener...

I hope it is found of use.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

sltloser — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:50:48 GMT

Yep those are the little guys i ment haha. I also read your article that had been talked about earlier in the thread and it is great i can't wait for the second part to come out! I also love the hitchhikers guid you linked for me great for categorizing the things that i see but not really sure what they are.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Eric Borneman — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:00:01 GMT

Just as a note, the word meiofauna has specific connotations, (50-500microns, interstitial, vary primarily with grain size, important trophic link -as consumers and acting as food-, hard to sample without coring, important in decomposition and nutrient cycling. Many people use the word to simply distinguish between big things like fish and cucumbers from microbes like bacteria and fungi. Our normally seen sand-dwelling amphipods and polychaetes, for example, are not meiofauna. 50 microns is basically microscopic and 500 (0.5mm) microns is still really really small. But, this "middle" size category is really important and again fits into the high functional group that is for all intents and purposes unseen. They will not exist to any extent at all without sediments.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:00:30 GMT

I too probably spend more time in front of the refugium than I do the so called "display" tank. Not sure what you meant by what I'm looking at but assume by your love of those things tiny that you meant the meiofauna as mentioned above. If so, check out the "zooplankton" section of my hitch hiker pages. Thanks for the comments.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

sltloser — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:57:30 GMT

I LOVE this thread charles, eric, and everyone else following/replying. I think this will really open a lot of peoples eyes to show them they don't need 1,000$ skimmers, and 500$ calcium reactors, and phosphate reactors, and all the other bells and whistles people seem to be using more and more of lately (as it seems to me). They can just use natural filtration for their tanks and have the exact same results without spending all the extra $$$ on everything, they will just need to dose what is necessary. To me my refugium is just as extravigant and fantastic as is my main tank hehe (many call me crazy) but i think that the breakdown of nutrients and detritus by all the small organisms you can't see with your eyes, and the ones you can see, is just amazing, along with the grown of macroalgae and how they hinder a home for fauna and all other types of organisms. As i've heard said somewhere.??? haha "less is better".(and by the way charels any way we could get a few pics of what u've been look'n at? ) Have a good one all!!

-Brady

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

fredfish — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 06:51:17 GMT

Thanks for the considered reply Chuck.

I guess I was using the wrong word. I was thinking of the organisms the next size down. Having been brought up old school, I still think in terms of chains. I thought that the loss of what I assumed to be the dominant grazer, bristle worms, would have a more visible effect on my tank.

Same thing with interconnected tanks. I am thinking in terms of Meiofauna (thanks for the corrected spelling) and the impact of predation by seahorses in my main tank. On a reef, the water turnover between niches/ecosystems is tremendous. When you compare it with the paultry turnover between my refugium and main tank, I wonder at how there can be much in the way of animal transfer between tanks.

Maybe the current set of dominant grazers are much smaller than I think. ... or better at hiding ... or there are more amphipods surviving in the main tank than I thought ...or...

Thanks for the link. I will read your first article and look forward to the next in the series when it comes out.

Hey Eric, are there any public aquariums out there exploring this milti-tank multi-ecosystem approach? 15 years ago when I did a lot of business travel I visited a number of public aquariums in North America and Europe, but don't remember ever seing a display that did this.

Fred

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Eric Borneman — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 04:30:22 GMT

There are places where nature comes close to using the "single tank" method, and perhaps not ironically, they are low diversity veneer communities lacking the complexity of what are more traditionally thought of as coral reefs - and Chuck is right in the heart of the more complex and diverse areas on earth. It's also pretty safe to say the the more complex, diverse, and redundant the ecosytem, the more resilient they are.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 23:19:02 GMT

fredfish (3/1/2008)

Series?? What series? I havn't spent enough time on this board lately. I would be very interested in reading anything you have written.

Hi Fred, I have part one done and am about 45% done with part two. With the series, I am "walking" them out from shore to where the corals are found. Being a five part series ought to give a clue as to what is encountered on the way out to the corals. Which all makes it possible for the corals to be where they are, in great abundance that is, there are of course corals scattered amongst the other habitats but in very limited numbers and species.

I just didn't think that the miofauna (is that the right word) would keep up without the graizers higher up in the food chain webthingy).

The meiofauna (a term used to describe a specific size range) usualy include such organisms such as copepods, ostracodes and like sized critters. Such fauna are very important in the nutrient web making the link between phytoplankton, bacteria and detritus to the larger, and sometimes, MUCH larger fauna. The micro/macroalgae grazers do provide a source of food (dooky detritus) which is consumed directly by such meiofauna and indirectly by consuming the bacteria/fungi that is decomposing such detritus. The list of possible detritus consumers is too large to list, but include the foraminiferans, nematodes, polychaetes and on and on and on. Before I go on to writing an article here, let me just asure you that the nutrient web(s) are extremely complex, hence the brain damage I am doing to myself... But... if one understands the web a bit, it becomes very obvious (as it did to me) and explains a great deal of what goes on in our systems as well as what we can do to either encourage or discourage any aspect of it.

On interconnected systems... I always wonder how much transfer there is between my refugium and main tank. The interactions between connected tanks in a system just can't be the same as on a reef.

I could not imagine anything other than there being a great deal of transfer, of both dissolved nutrients and those nutrients transported by any algae and fauna capable of going through a pump or overflow. Even those that do not survive a pump's impellors are still transporting themselves and their nutrients elsewhere, a death by pump only means that they are going to be food for something just a tad quicker. With multiple habitats out on the fringing reef here, they form very distinct zones, with little overlap yet they share common water and nutrients through currents / tides. Which to me sounds like a VERY large, multiple refugium system.

Nature does not do the single tank method. Why we continue to try and force what nature can not do is beyond me. The ineviatable pitfalls and frustrations that a single tank comes with is so easily overcome with seperate yet connected refugiums, reguiring nothing more than some lights, some water movement, supplementing that what we know is being used and is of use, some food and a bit of carbon from time to time.

What I am hoping to accomplish with this series is to show how, what and why each "refugium" is capable of (even thought its been done before) on the fringing reefs and then how to apply, given what is available within the hobby, a combination to allow you to sit back and enjoy a true reef at home. Without ever having to again wonder at how to get around biology with all the bells and whistles that are thrown at us.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

fredfish — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 14:14:46 GMT

Series?? What series? I havn't spent enough time on this board lately. I would be very interested in reading anything you have written.

Will check out the thread you mentioned. I know what I will find and smell if I pull up some of my sandbed. I saw the same thing when I kept freswater planted tanks.

I just didn't think that the miofauna (is that the right word) would keep up without the graizers higher up in the food chain webthingy).

On interconnected systems... I always wonder how much transfer there is between my refugium and main tank. The interactions between connected tanks in a system just can't be the same as on a reef.

I have always thought about a single system with protected areas so that those areas are free of predation, but there is more interaction between the various areas.

Sigh, need more space, money and time so I can set something up.

Fred

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

forestal — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 04:54:59 GMT

Chuck - nothing to add, just to say I love reading your threads and your rants. i am constantly trying to learn more and i am guarranteed to learn something from your work

keep up the good work

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:38:13 GMT

Which takes me back to the ATScrubbers and your noting the balanced N/P of most foods we add to our systems which the green filamentous algae just happen to do best in.

Sitting here thinking over a few things, I've noticed that when ever I try to make a case against doing really weird things to our systems it never fails that towards the end of the thread(s), someone will pipe in that our systems are not natural in any sense of the word thus making it okay to do very unnatural things to them, or worse, to "experiment" on them. Funny how everything that I have learned so far of the reef habitats are all applicable to our systems and have yet to find anything going on in any system as being unnatural, thats just impossible. Different levels of effects, sure, but the causes all remain the same regardless if its a few billion gallons or a hundred. The only thing I find unnatural about our systems is trying to force a single (tank) habitat to do the jobs that takes multiple habitats in nature to do. Which explains to me the constant need to come up with magic pills and becoming a member of the "method of the month" club. Drives me nuts when it can and is so easy otherwise, take the money you spent on an eco-aqualizor and buy another refugium, its probably a lot cheaper!

Sorry, I tend to rant when off on a tangent....lol

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Eric Borneman — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:18:23 GMT

Right - and brown algae, now dominant space competitors on Caribbean reefs (Dictyota, Lobophora, Padina) in low nutrients. Why? Lack of herbivory (overfishing and Diadema loss) and increased space availability (dead and dying corals).

My colleague noted that fifteen years ago he did surveys in an area just offshore a tuna canning plant's effluent and found corals being smothered by abundant and very tall Enteromorpha. Nitrogen rich, the green alga flourished.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:46:14 GMT

Thanks Steve, but hang on a sec, I have to open this relief valve on my head, its getting seriously inflated...

In all honesty, were it not for the likes of all the good people here, I would never have been inspired to look closer and would most likely be just another consumer on the reef while remaining ignorant, not by choice mind you, but having access to the great minds of our hobby makes it possible to do the most important thing of all..... ask. I just happen to be blessed with having a great deal to ask.

Eric, thanks for that article! I did not have that one afterall. And a brief read and one fact jumped out at me right away, given what I have previously studied (filamentous algae).

Algae turf cover was least with only phosphate enrichment, It was at its highest (and a lot higher than expected) with equal enrichment with nitrate and phosphate and lower, yet still high, with just nitrogen enrichment. Also of note was the findings that single sources of pollution are cause for greater loss of diversity whereas previous studys seem to be stuck on the two nutrients being together. If I read that correctly that is.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

CTReefer — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:40:47 GMT

Chuck: I agree strongly with Eric's compliments as well. What you have accomplished with your observations of the underwater life around you is totally amazing to me. Many of us wish that we could be in the same position & have all of that time to spend snorkeling & diving on a nearby reef. However, putting myself in your position I doubt that I personally would take the time to research & document things the way that you have. It takes a very scientifically astute mind & persistence to do what you do. Keep doing what you appear to do best as we all enjoy the knowledge that you impart on us. Thanks for making the marine environment "come alive" for many of us!

Steve

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:10:19 GMT

Eric Borneman (2/28/2008)

Chuck, you are an amazing reader and thinker. I am beaming here behind my keyboard. Yes, indeed and the more you learn, the more your head hurts. We spent hours last week trying to figure out the "death by a thousand cuts" of reefs, especially the rapid decline of reefs where the water quality was still high and there was little terrestrial or anthropogenic impact and discussed in terms of nutrient cycles, currents, spatial dominance, food webs, changes in trophic structure, competition, normal and historical diversity, remaining species resilience and adaptation, etc. The unified theory is not easy, and so many reefs are so very different. It does make the head hurt and the more you learn, the less you realize we know. I did send you the nutrient enrichment paper from 2007 by McClanahan et al. didn't I?

It is nice to see that I'm not the only one with a headache.. Spent another day at it again and thought I was done with the tough stuff, but even something "easy" such as the grazers, goes off into so many tangents. Looking at something as seemingly benign as seagrass detritus took me four days and I mean DAYS to get to a point where I felt I could write something down. Even then, there is just no way I can do it any real justice, don't think anyone could though in a single article, not when it takes an entire paper to explore just one path out of a great many (the great many is putting it mildly).

What I am trying to do, and I think with some success, is to take what I read within the papers and apply them to "my" seagrass meadow, which it turns out I am a lot more intimate with than I had thought. A written study will kick in memories that when taken within the context of the study allows me to understand observation(s) that I had not given any importance to, the old " so thats why that does...." which has been allowing me to tie other things in and come away thinking I might just have a clue...and a clue is about all one can really ask for when looking at such a massively big picture, and that is about all I hope to accomplish with this article, to try and pass along enough clues to where the big picture is a bit less fuzzy. Putting each possible aspect in a way (as in short enough) has been a big challenge as well. On top of it all, my vocabulary is getting a huge boost as well...

A few more photos and a few more days of reading might see me moving into the aquarium half of it. Then as you know comes the really fun part, proof reading!!!

By the way, anyone have a photo of a scribbled rabbitfish that I can use? I would hate to spend a month trying to catch one of those fast buggers just for one photo...lol

Almost forgot, no, I don't think I have that paper on nutrients, I might, but I have downloaded and been sent (by you) so many that I am still trying to organize them. I know you are extremely busy but if you have the chance I can use some more reading, did I just say that?....aaahhhhhhhh!!!

Thanks for the huge compliment as well, coming from you has some weight to it and am very flattered.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Eric Borneman — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:51:55 GMT

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:59:11 GMT

Eric Borneman (2/27/2008)

Fabulous thread and thanks, Chuck and all for the well-thought out ideas and observations. Seagrass community ecology is fascinating and I really love the visuals of the storm induced blade removal. The appearance of beach litter and the appearance of floating blades on the surface and even being carried out beyond the shelf edge on the water is indeed an image that is very familiar. I also wonder about the effects of such events on seagrass meadows compared to the normal allochthonous deposition and whether periodic disruption and clearing works the same as intermediate disturbance maintaining high diversity as it does in other ecosystems, including coral reefs.

For the last few weeks now, I have been working on part two of my series and at first thought that it would be a simple matter of some taxonomy and some infauna and epiphytic organisms, toss it into a tank and be done... wrong!

The complexity of seagrass primary production, its sediments, nutrient pathways and on and on have caused me brain damage. For weeks now, I have done nothing but read papers from an hour after I get up in the morning until south park comes on at 1:30 am. I quite a tad early tonight, I can't hard focus anymore...lol Again, the complexity of it all just staggers me. I get on one subject and find two more within it and have to include that or miss the flow of what is going on. Even with constant work, I think I might be about 40 percent through it. And thats just with what happens in nature, I then have to apply all of that to the keeping of the seagrasses within a refugium setting....

Funny we are back to disturbances as I just got through that section with a bit more to go. Something we would not even notice, such as the difference between a one foot wave and an 18 inch wave can and does have a profound effect both immediately and for a long time afterwards as well, toss in the long term cycles between monsoon seasons, infaunal and faunal disturbances, predators and herbivores actions or anything and everything that so much as quivers within the seagrass community can be felt all the way up and down the nutrient web, which also extends far beyond the seagrass community, then.... apply or try to account for other habitats interactions as well....then...toss in human activities and......ahhhhhhh!!!! My brain hurts.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Eric Borneman — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:30:46 GMT

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Chubosco — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:23:14 GMT

I have a small section at the end of my small reef for seagrass. I have had no luck growing it with the exception of manatee grass. It is growing and I have a dragonface pipefish that enjoys the grass. It grows slowly. If I could only get the lawn to grow that slow.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:07:46 GMT

Hey Fred,

I think you hit on a key word as per your disappearing detritus, "visible", check out my thread titled "playing in the sandbox" and you will likely see the culprits. The diversity of microscopic species that can be found within/on live sediment is amazing. Their sheer numbers also.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

fredfish — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 02:52:54 GMT

Nope, no seagrass in the tank, only macro algae, but the tank is FULL.

At times I see whole sections of algae pale and turn white, but in the end it seems to dissapear as it dies.

Maybe algae does not 'litter' as much as seagrass.

I do remember when I first set up the tank, that I would get small piles of dead algae on the sandbed. As the system matured, they stopped appearing.

I don't really know what is consuming the detritus. My worm population crashed over a year ago, and has not recovered. Aside from amphipods, there is not much visible in the way of small critters.

Fred

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:15:33 GMT

Hey Fred,

Are you saying that you have a mat of seagrass leaf litter? If so, after having spent an entire day reading, I was quite surprised at what actualy goes on down under that stuff. With you saying that you don't remove the litter and don't have any issues, that came as another surprise to me. As I study this coming week, might the answer reveal itself, unless you already know..

Am hoping to get face down in the grassbed again tomorrow, although its going to be a high tide which means a lot of breath holding (good work out for me as usual) and plan to get more photos as well as some of the sediment to sample the life found in the upper layers, I don't like to go too deep because its awfull stanky and the wife liked to have beat me the last time I brought some of that black goo into the house, had to do a quick about face...

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

fredfish — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:02:36 GMT

Actually graveyardworm, from my experience, I don't think you will have nutrient problems just from leaving the dead stuff behind.

I havn't removed anything from my tank in almost a year and I don't have any issues. I havn't measured anything in quite a while though.

I suspect if you use an algae scrubber for export or remove some portion of live material regularly, you will be just fine. Any algae growing in the system will continue to soak up nutrients.

I am rather surprised that I havn't seen much in the way of detritus accumulating at the bottom of my tank or refugium. Things are being recycled rather efficiently at the moment, and I don't have much diversity in the tank (never did).

Chuck. I remember having a similar discussion with Ron a few years ago. From what I remember, critters go through regular population swings in small areas, but are repopulated by surrounding areas. Even a tank of a few thousand gallons is not big enough to survive local population swings.

We also have the problem of providing a wide enough range of foods to support any sort of species diversity.

You have a great opportunity being so close to a tropical sea.

Fred

P.S. feel free to post more seagrass pics here any time

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Alentino — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:35:20 GMT

Great observation chuck. And also there are the seagrass grazers e.g manatees that pull 'em out, eat 'em and through their digestive system export the nutrients to other communities like the abyss.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:34:16 GMT

That does sound like a bit of a quandry, while carbon would deal with any tannins, the biggie for me would be the decay, which in a seagrass habitat not only provides shelter for fauna but a great deal of food as well (bacteria all the way up to inverts), but since such fauna would be either seriously lacking or not diverse enough in an aquarium setting, I would remove it. Besides, nutrients (Phosphates/Nitrogen) is not something usualy lacking in anyones aquarium system and am sure there is more than enough for sediment enrichment just in the water. In other words, the leaf litter would rot without actualy being of benefit to the seagrass and would end up fueling something else as the leaf litter would not have its nutrients returned to the sediment by the infauna.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

Graveyardworm — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:11:05 GMT

I have wondered if within my seagrass tank i should leave the dead/decaying leaves when they fall away from the plant. I suspect that in leaving them I would potentially add yellowing compounds to the water and excess nutrients to the water column so I usually remove them as soon as I find them, but I wonder if leaving them in has some greater benefit for the seagrass and possible DSB infauna diversity as well.

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 08:07:36 GMT

In a single enclosed glass cube that is, Now that I know what I know by having seen it for myself, I want to say that I am surprised (but I'm not) that the majority of the hobby is so geared towards the single tank methods (a dark equipment filled sump don't count). Also think of the industry behind keeping single tanks going, its freaking huge. What I am really bugging out on is that if I can have what I think is a beautifull 80 gallon display maintained with a 20 gallon macro algae refugium and a 20 gallon sump with a mini turf scrubber and run it all on some CF bulbs, a single 250w MH, a couple of pumps and a fluidized chamber for carbon while supplementing only calcium, alkalinity and magnesium and hardly ever do a water change anymore, can you imagine what could be done with say a 100 gallon macro fuge, 100 gallon DSB seagrass bed and a suitably large ATS ? Great googly moogly! The diversity I have now would look like a guppy tank compared to that set up! I need a bigger apartment!!!

Just seems like single tank systems spend their time fighting biology or doing really weird things to make up for their shortcomings. Hence the industry that gives us the eco aqualizor...

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

CTReefer — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:31:09 GMT

Absolutely Chuck! And that's the reason why we can't reproduce something as diverse as a coral reef ecosystem in an enclosed glass cube no matter how large it is!

Steve

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

charlesr1958 — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:47:08 GMT

Had another thought last night and its driving me crazy this morning because I lost it...lol I must be getting at that age where I have to start writing things down, that or my hard drive is getting full and need to purge.

I tell you what though, with all of this reading I'm doing, I will never look at seagrass beds the same and instead of just running across the lawn I am beginning to appreciate just how complex such things are.

Chuck

RE: Recycling of seagrass nutrients

CTReefer — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 08:13:42 GMT

Hi Chuck: Makes sense to me! This would be considered a part of the normal decomposition/recycling of all organic matter in the oceans. Makes no difference if it's a Whale that dies & decomposes or inshore Algae. The cycle of nature is truly amazing.......

Steve