Marine Depot Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman / About Palytoxin and clams / Latest Posts

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

forestal — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:48:30 GMT

i might be a bit concerned with the drop in pH, that is a big swing in a day... sometimes this can be improved with night lights on the fuge for photosynthesis to counteract the pH drop. if you are adding supplements, i would test for them, especially iodine/magnesium as overdose may kill your more sensitive inverts... the makers of snake oils will always say they are safe even if there have been no studies to verify it (and not saying your supplements are bad, just i wouldnt automatically trust them )

predation is a possibility, but bristleworms typically will appear to be killing a clam but eating already dead tissue with a few exceptions, other predators, snails, may be a culprit (look for holes in the shells)

perhaps the source is giving you bad clams

i think your lighting should be fine (my 2 croceas went from 250 MH to t5's and are on the bottom at 24" and doing well)

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

coraladdict — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:29:52 GMT

forestal (11/26/2007)

only thing i would add is general tank stability, how long has the tank been setup, what is your lighting and "normal" parameters is less useful than getting specifics. what size tank, what is your pH, alk, ca, Mg, Temp, specific grav. , Nitrate, nitrites, ammonia,

the tank may not be stable enough if too young (some would argue <1 year old)

how big and what type of clam...if <2 inches, often they need to be fed and may not get all their nutrition from the light

any previous medications used in the tank (copper, etc) that might be toxic

have you checked how much you pH/oxygen changes at nightime with lights off

As a general rule, i would recommend only adding supplements that you know are helpful (and i woulndt go by the LFS person or the label but studies done showing why it is needed/helpful) and that you are testing... you could be overdosing iodine which is toxic to inverts

hopefully we can figure out the issue and help you keep a clam

My tank has been setup for a year, all my water parms have been checked every time I lost a clam and they were always ok.I never dosed medication but I'm useing bacterial supplements and bac food since the beginning so my nitrates and phosporus are undectable and Salifert and DD Merck .I've contacted the companiy who makes the supplements and explained to them if their products could of caused death to my clams .They answered no if not overdosed, which they weren't.My pH at night drops to 7.7 - 7.8 in the day I'll get up to 8,4-5 all my other parms are on target.BTW out of the 9 clams that died 6 were 2" the others were 4 and 5 ",I underatand that clams under 3" are iffy...My lighting consist of 8 T5's over an 18" water column which the clams are sitting about 10 " below the bulbs.My tank is 48x24x24.I have a 600MCE Deltec skimmer and I dose kalkwasser via a Nelson reactor.

Last night I noticed a 6 " worm can't say exactly which species though but I took it out.I'll be checking for other worms at night,it could just be them.

Thanks

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

forestal — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:33:07 GMT

the tank may not be stable enough if too young (some would argue <1 year old)

how big and what type of clam...if <2 inches, often they need to be fed and may not get all their nutrition from the light

any previous medications used in the tank (copper, etc) that might be toxic

have you checked how much you pH/oxygen changes at nightime with lights off

hopefully we can figure out the issue and help you keep a clam

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

chris_stewart — Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:19:17 GMT

I would think there is a greater probability of a parasitic flatworm of some sort, they are nocturnal and highly mobile.

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

Eric Borneman — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:45:39 GMT

There are so many potential causes of clam death, and Mike mentions one - but at the same time, snails die all the time, too, and the natural decomposition would cause an appearance of being covered in slime. As for the supplements, I have no idea what's in them, the dosage, or their effects on anything in the tank (I suspect neither do the manufacturers, though).

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

coraladdict — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:17:44 GMT

greenbean36191 (11/25/2007)

Also, there's really no way to look at a clam (or most other inverts for that matter) and tell that they're healthy. Sometimes there are outward signs of poor health, but not always. As a result, it's not unusual for a "healthy" clam to die overnight. However, your description of clear jelly makes me suspect you may have the worm Oenone fulgida on your hands. It's a predator of mollusks and leaves its victims covered in slime. Are you finding any dead snails covered in slime too?

That's interesting, I did see a large snail covered in clear mucus one morning and after reading about this creature it could just be that .I'll have to investigate at night and try to find this creature.

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

coraladdict — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:07:28 GMT

Eric Borneman (11/25/2007)

I think it probably could be ingested or absorbed by clams if they were reproducing, highly stressed, or falling apart and dying. I totally agree with Frank and would have answered the same. It's a very long shot, the compound has to be released and the organism has to have not only an uptake means, but it has to be able to produce an effect. Some toxins are general and some are highly specific and palytoxin is one complicated molecule!

I recall losing a paly colony during that death time frame.So it could be the cause, I'm so confused !

I've noticed that I have a paly colony very close to a BTA which two clowns live in and swim close to them at the point that I can see the palys retract.

Is it possible that the death of the clams could be cause by supplements such as amino acids,potassium iodide fluoride and bacterial colonies to help reduce No3 and po4 ?

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

greenbean36191 — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 06:52:59 GMT

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

Eric Borneman — Sun, 25 Nov 2007 05:45:49 GMT

RE: About Palytoxin and clams

FMarini — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:12:29 GMT

obviously I'm not Eric,
but i would say knowing palytoxin, that it has to be release and absorb/ingested to work, so unless something is constantly irritating the palythoa, and its secreting PT nearby and the clams are ingesting it, then its a long shot. I will also mention that a number of inverts are insensitive to the toxin, don't know about clams specifically,
but if it were me, I'd be look elsewhere for the reasons the clams are passsing.

About Palytoxin and clams

coraladdict — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:03:35 GMT

Hi Eric

I've had 9 clams died on me in the last 6 months.I've checked water parms after each death and they were normal.They were normal looking ,fully extended no pyramid snails or pinched mantle disease ,growing, happy as a clam and boom wake up in the morning just to see a dead clam turned into a clear jelly. After reading a few articles on palytoxin I was asking myself since I have various species of palys in my tank,if it would be possible the palys were the cause ?

Thanks