Marine Depot Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman / Elegance coral update / Latest Posts

RE: Elegance coral update

Clownfish — Thu, 03 May 2007 07:38:13 GMT

Are there any new updates on this subject?

I think we were all waiting for a big announcement when this thread first posted...

What happened? Any new information either positive or negative would be appreciated.

If we take a look at 'What hasn't worked' perhaps a solution can be found ?

Has anyone considered this may be a virus?

RE: Elegance coral update

edkruzel — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:21:54 GMT

Hello Eric,
Glad to see the updates, for some reason I don't get notifications through email and I'm very busy on another forum (name withheld) .

A friend picked up two very nice Elegance (shipped as Australian) that did well for about 3wks - month and then went down hill fast. He fragged a small corner (little less than my fingernail) which is in my nano (about 2mths now). It has formed a nice round shape, mouth in the center and doubled in size. None of the older specimens in his tank were effected.

When I first received it I placed it on the sand (10gal 3'' sand bed) with a 96watt quad for lighting. It has actually responded best when moved to another area that receives two hours of direct sunlight. The quad is strong enough to support rapid growth on numerous light lovers throughout the tank, so I chalk it up to spectrum (I know there glass in this factor, but you may recall my natural light experiments a few years back).

Here is where a small clown was trying to host in it (moved on since) and it's looking even better now.

RE: Elegance coral update

reverendmaynard — Mon, 09 Apr 2007 05:53:04 GMT

An update on my elegance. Now about 9 months in...

Before:

After:

RE: Elegance coral update

Umm_fish — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:25:16 GMT

Thanks, Eric! What a scary disease....

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:38:18 GMT

Mr. Firemouth: That one looks really good.

As to it being "over," as far as I am aware most diseases are never over. The nature of the problem may have changed though as fewer and fewer were brought in, and perhaps the pathogen was lost from tanks no longer with hosts. As I have mentioned many times, the condition appears to be rare in the wild, but highly contagious, so that tanks (exporters, wholesalers, retailers) who would keep multiples in the same system would undoubtedly cause the exposure and potential infection of others. Therefore, if tanks didn't have elegance corals in them because vendors or suppliers weren't buying them, and healthy stock was reintroduced, then they might remain healthy. But, if a diseased individual is again placed into the system, the potential is for the problem to go right back to where it was.

Even smallpox isn't gone

As to a bioencapsulated product, I think that might be the best solution. The aggregates are throughout the tissue in gastroderm and epidermis, presumably the causative agent though I have not cultured them and reintroduced them to a healthy coral (Koch's postulates, limited but helpful), and so the drug would have to be able to pass through epidermal cells and mesoglea. If it cannot cross the plasma membrane (no receptor) then ingestion and phagocytosis is likely a way to get it into the cells.

RE: Elegance coral update

Mr.Firemouth — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:57:41 GMT

I hope this guy makes it. The skeleton is 4.5" long and the polyp has 3 mouths. The color is very uniform and so is the tentacles. Is there anything in particular that I should watch for?

I got him/her/it at the LFS 2 weeks ago. I am really happy with the color patterns.

Here is the pic....

There is another pic from a photographer that is copyrighted so I did not transfer the picture to here. I am not sure if you have to register to see it or not...These are macro shots...

http://www.uberfrags.net/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1032.html

RE: Elegance coral update

Umm_fish — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:42:15 GMT

I was posting a link to this for someone on another forum who had "heard" that the elegence problem was over and it got me thinking about your summary of the issue (in your last post). Would bio-encapsulating antibiotics help at all?

Thanks!

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:19:21 GMT

I haven't bought live rock in a long time and am unsure who currently has the best rock. From what I see, though, the Indonesian seems to have the most life on it, outside the aquacultured rock from Florida (which loses a lot of life) and is still unattractive in shape and heavy.

I have all the information that Julian wrote about. The antibiotic does not "cure" the problem. I have yet to have a single success using that method. That said, it does appear to me that the problem is bacteria aggregates in the tissue (not external) that also seem to cause granulation and disintegration of the nematocysts. There is a possibly secondary factor that is affecting zooxanthellae. I do not know what its role is as it is not in every sample.

RE: Elegance coral update

varian31 — Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:42:11 GMT

Hello Eric In regards to the problem with elegance Julian Sprung was also working on that same problem, I cant remember what year it was but I do remember that he was using an antibiotic and soaking the elegance in the solution. His remarks were that it seemed to clear up the problem. Problem is like I said I cant remember when he did this. I do know the medicine he used could only be gotten by priscription only and it was imperative that the solution be disposed of Properly afterwards. I had a meat coral which I belive is close to the elegence and I never had a problem with that coral except that it would expand to huge proportions late in the afternoon. Of course this was back in the late eighties in a 55 gallon aquarium. That was my first reef tank and everything I had in there coral and anemone wise did wonderful. I tried setting up a 100 gallon reef had no luck and then I went to a 180 and still no luck. The first tank had no Ro or Di I would just use tap or go to the store and buy bottled water. At the time I was stationed in Key West. Got transferred to Jacksonville Fl and got the 100 gallon tank and used Ro and Di but I dont believe I let the tank cycle like I should have, the same thing with the 180 used Ro and DI metal halides Vho actinics 2 175 1 400 watt sunburst, corals just would not grow. Had several powerheads for water movement plus a little giant pump on a sump. Had a yellow tang that did wonderful but couldnt keep anything else. Now I am living in Nebraska and have no access to pet stores but decided to try the 180 again have it set up and saltwater in it with about two inches of white sand so far. just bought a Tunze protein skimmer as well as a Knop Calicum Reactor and getting those installed today. Im in no hurry this time the water has been in the tank now about two weeks and plumming is all done no leaks so far. I am getting ready to order 3 or 4 boxes of live rock within the next couple of weeks. What would be the best rock to get? Thanks

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:12:15 GMT

Thanks. Done.

RE: Elegance coral update

jtremblay — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:50:06 GMT

Eric Borneman (2/20/2007)

page three? Where? I'll take it.

Here?

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:07:51 GMT

page three? Where? I'll take it.

RE: Elegance coral update

David_agg05 — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:04:55 GMT

My ellegance on page three is for sale!!! I don't have a large enough tank for it. Tentacles fully expanded it takes up about a square foot in my 125 and just cant keep it in there anymore. Email is david_agg05@hotmail.com.

RE: Elegance coral update

jtremblay — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:08:14 GMT

Getting an elegance coral was one of the reasons I got into the hobby 4 years ago. I saw a picture of an elegance, went to an LFS and saw a full-blown reef tank with an elegance in it. My jaw dropped.

By the time I was ready for stony corals, the elegance at the LFS had receded away to nothing. I poked around and then found out that's what happens to most of them these days

It's a shame since they're beautiful and, beyond their disease, quite hardy.

Jason

RE: Elegance coral update

fredfish — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:02:42 GMT

Thats a shame, but its kinda what I expected.

Hopefully there will be progress again at some point.

Its interesting, but I do not see these at the lfs very often any more. After years of dead corals maybe folks are finally getting the idea that these are better off left in the ocean.

Fred

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:43:47 GMT

Yes, and its slow and partly my fault for not having enough time, but also because what needs to happen next requires expertise beyond my means and their volunteer time (read really slow), and also requires me finding a couple of sick ones to try some treatments on and some culture of putative pathogens in the interim and I don't have time right now.

RE: Elegance coral update

Kent E — Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:57:19 GMT

Hi eric,
I'm on the edge of my seat and wondering if any progress has been made.

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:27:28 GMT

Can you post a photo? I saw two healthy ones in a local store a few days ago.

RE: Elegance coral update

Steven Pro — Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:35:19 GMT

Drewcipher (8/31/2006)

Eric, how long will an elegance with this condition survive? Everyone that sees mine says it is going to die, but it is 8 months in my tank and just keeps growing.

How are you defining growth? Can you see new skeletal deposits or only an apparent increase in the flesh?

RE: Elegance coral update

Drewcipher — Thu, 31 Aug 2006 06:57:43 GMT

Eric, how long will an elegance with this condition survive? Everyone that sees mine says it is going to die, but it is 8 months in my tank and just keeps growing.

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:47:01 GMT

Not yet...hopefully soon. I just spent some time with one of my coral histopathology colleagues this weekend and we discussed some things. Am waiting to hear from two more people, some EM work, and need to go back and examine slides under oil for the aggregates I found for specific characteristics. Then, I'll need to find a few sick ones and do some trials.

RE: Elegance coral update

reverendmaynard — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:20:12 GMT

Thank you for replying.

Is there anything you would recommend doing as a precautionary measure to combat this disease that you have discovered?

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:07:36 GMT

Adam:

A total shame for all of us because that was one of the most stunning elegance I have ever seen.

The earlier shot - I wouldn't have necessarily called it healthy...borderline...questionable....possibly bad tank conditions with recovery in good conditions or possible early disease signs.

David: Yours is a truly healthy one and exactly what it should look like. Thanks for the email...already responded.

RE: Elegance coral update

AdamC — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:33:15 GMT

RM,

I suspect that it finally succumbed to allelopathy. It was in a tank with a couple of large softies (Sinularias and Sarcophyton) and a lot of zooanthids. I tried carbon, but not ozone with no effect. In the couple of months leading up to the loss of the elegance, I had moved the sarcophyton, making it quite unhappy and had gone on a crusade of trying to eradicate zoanthids by manual extraction. Both of these actions could have escalated the chemical arms race in the tank.

I would have moved it to my other tank, but it was a large coral and I was concerned about risking the lives of the animals in the smaller tank if it rapidly deteriorated.

While it was still heathy, I fragged it twice. Eric had a fragment of it. I am sure it was lost when his tank was recently sabotaged, but if he picks up on this maybe he can say how it was doing. Eric also saw the parent colony shortly before it died, but I don't remember if I pointed out the problem to him or if he noticed it since it expanded well (and hid the recession) up until the last few days.

The other frag was given away when the main colony started to recede. A friend put the frag in a tank with mostly euphyllias (presumably less allelopathy?) where it died in the same way and about in the same time frame as the main colony.

No brown jelly, white paste or other grossly observable signs of pathogens or opportunistic infection was ever observed... just recession. In hind sight I am kicking myself for not grabbing some tissue samples to send to Eric, especially since I have access to formalin.

What exactly does all of this information mean? I dunno. I suspect that the frag could have been so badly weakened that moving it to a less competitive environment was too little too late, but the whole thing remains a little odd to me.

HTH

Adam

RE: Elegance coral update

reverendmaynard — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:08:59 GMT

Adam,

Yes it does!

Thanks for the encouraging words. I take it you don't know why yours died?

RE: Elegance coral update

AdamC — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 09:48:13 GMT

ReverendMaynard,

First, to stray slightly off topic... Tool Rocks.

Anyway, on to your comment above... I have seen a quite a few healthy elegance corals now, and not all showed the long tentacle extension that you are looking for. In fact, a few were healthy and growing for quite a while in captivity and the tentacles were never longer than about an inch. I don't know if this is an issue of extension or different morphs, but it isn't an absolute indication of health.

FWIW... my elegance (which grew by at least 5X in the three or so years I had it) had some of the longest tentacles I have ever seen on an elegance.... right up until the week or so before it died.

Adam

RE: Elegance coral update

reverendmaynard — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 06:19:32 GMT

After having seen the pics of some peoples magnificent specimens, as well as Marie's poor creature , I'm a little concerned. Mine has pretty short tenctacles, anywhere from 1-3cm, whilst these other apparently healthy specimens are much longer, almost like a torch coral. I noticed that Marie's problems began with the shortening and eventual loss of the tentacles. Does that mean mine probably has the disease already, or is it possible it's still acclimating and/or is a different morph of elegance?

Too bad Eric didn't get a chance to reply. I'll fell pretty bad if, when his article comes out, I found out that I missed the window for succesfull treatment. My bad for purchasing it, knowing that they have problems and not knowing what the solution to them is, I guess. It's not the money either, I just feel bad anytime a creature is taken from the sea and then dies in my care (fortunately this has not happened to me, except for fish that arrived unhealthy due to shipping stress). I can tell myself "it was already at the lfs, and someone would have bought it", but still...

RE: Elegance coral update

David_agg05 — Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:58:18 GMT

Hey Eric,
I was just browsing and saw this link. Figured I would give you a good look at my elegance. Let me know what you think. By the way I'm the David that you have been in contact with about the new research facility. I look forward to hearing from you.

RE: Elegance coral update

reverendmaynard — Wed, 12 Jul 2006 13:33:00 GMT

[quote]Marie1 (7/12/2006)

The elegance is beautiful, I'm jealous. For now it "looks" healthy, feed it lots of meaty foods cut into small piecesand don'tmess with it until it looks like it's got problems. Who knows maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones [/hr][/quote]

One can hope, right?

One thing that may be in my favor is that they only got one of them in, and had never had any during the 6 months or so that I've been frequenting that store. I'd think infection at the store is unlikely, assuming it's a pathogen that needs an elegance to host. Obviously, the rest of the supply chain is unknown.

RE: Elegance coral update

Marie1 — Wed, 12 Jul 2006 13:25:33 GMT

reverendmaynard (7/12/2006)

Thanks Marie. I think you forgot to include the link, but I found it. ...

Oops , sorry

RE: Elegance coral update

reverendmaynard — Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:22:13 GMT

Thanks Marie. I think you forgot to include the link, but I found it.

My coral was received at the LFS on 7/2/06. I brought it home on Monday, 7/10. Here's a pic from last night...

RE: Elegance coral update

Marie1 — Tue, 11 Jul 2006 22:49:32 GMT

Here's a link to the thread of everything I've done to date, this one had the disease though. Your best hope is that your coral has never come in contact with the disease

RE: Elegance coral update

BrianPlankis — Tue, 11 Jul 2006 22:09:15 GMT

reverendmaynard (7/11/2006)

Hi Eric,

I just purchased an apparently healthy elegance coral from my LFS yesterday. Is there anything you can tell me that I can do now to give it the best possible chance?

Thanks,
Eric.

Eric is currently offline for a few days, so he won't be answering right away. Do you know how long the coral was in the LFS? Their survival rate is typically pretty low, there is one member on here that has been feeding hers to fight off the condition that seems to kill them a lot in captivity.

I would suggest daily feedings with a variety of different meaty foods and vitamins or selecon. But that is all I know about Elegance corals. Maybe the person trying to save her Elegance will say what she is feeding, or you can do a search on this forum to find her thread.

Brian

RE: Elegance coral update

reverendmaynard — Tue, 11 Jul 2006 06:06:14 GMT

Hi Eric,

I just purchased an apparently healthy elegance coral from my LFS yesterday. Is there anything you can tell me that I can do now to give it the best possible chance?

Thanks,
Eric.

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Sat, 01 Jul 2006 06:46:15 GMT

Not yet. Its going to be coming up soon, though.

RE: Elegance coral update

edkruzel — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:15:47 GMT

Eric,
I've been out of pocket for awhile now and just jumped back on this topic.
Have you put out the article and do you have a link?

Thinking back to when an elegance was a hardy coral to keep up to the present day, we now keep many other alien species within the same confines.
Could this possibly be a passed pathogen from coral species that live symbiotically with the culprit?

Ed

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:52:58 GMT

No matter what it turns out to be, I think the best solution is education and training any collectors and exporters to recognize a sick elegance and dispose of it before it enters water or contacts any other elegance corals.

RE: Elegance coral update

CTReefer — Mon, 10 Apr 2006 08:08:13 GMT

Eric I know that this is very preliminary but.........

If the coral is not infected when it is plucked from the reef but rather aquires the infection when it gets to the distribution center (or wherever along those lines of transportation), & IF a bath type of treatment does not prove effective, then what type of treatment do you think would be necessary & also effective??? Or, will the transportation/collection of these corals have to be specifically altered in such a way that they remain isolated from the "general" coral populations along the way if at all possible??

I know, the 64 thousand dollar question(s) as usual??

Steve

RE: Elegance coral update

Eric Borneman — Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:01:27 GMT

That's what it looks like based on most of the samples I have looked at...some still have good cellular architecture throughout much of the section, but of course a quick and effective treatment will be needed, but IF, and only IF, these areas are the pathogens then they are within the tissue and so "baths" will not likely be effective.

RE: Elegance coral update

John Kelly — Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:15:35 GMT

Eric Borneman (4/3/2006)

......After that, it time to do some trials on treatments. The tissue, fwiw, gets really messed up over the progression of this condition, and it is no wonder that they are hard to save once it starts. Many had almost a total lack of cellular architecture.

So if the treatment isn't applied at the source, when the coral first becomes infected (exporters?), then by the time it reaches the wholesaler, the LFS, and then the hobbiest, the ailment may be treated, but the coral will still have areas of dead tissue; possibly lots of it. Yikes!................