Marine Depot Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman / Feeding the reef tank / Latest Posts

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:31:52 GMT

no, not at all. Sand sifting is natural using just the benthic fauna (worms, etc.) and heavy sand stirring disrupts the natural oxic gradients whee you get the important denitrification processes.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

troypt — Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:18:28 GMT

With the increased feeding of the tank, do you recommend having something to sift the sand, such as a goby or sand sifting star? and if so, what do you recommend?

Thanks

Troy

RE: Feeding the reef tank

donald altman — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:37:39 GMT

I am a fishermen and often come home with nice trout and grouper for dinner.

Even when I am at home on the lake I catch catfish and brim.. I have

been adding (bits and peices) left overs from cleaning fish for supper for use in

our aquarium as food. I put a peice of insides, a peice of fleshy meat some flake a bit of brine some krill and a peice of whatever I was using for bait that day...

usualy shrimp or minnows.. blend it all up and freese it in a bag with book on top so it make into a thin flat chuck.. when I want to feed the tank I just brake a small peice off the size of a dime or so and plop it in the tank.

I had a very very picky live caught anemone tha tI couldn't get to eat anything... eventualy after a long time trying to get it to eat soething I had the idea to try a earthworm that I had left over from a day of fishing.. I held the end of it and its moving and wiggle around on the anemeno was enough for it to start to grasp it.. in a few short minutes the worm had been eaten.. highl protien and the price was right.. I eventualy wiened the anemone to the usual mix and its done great every since..

I don't think i have ever used the roe... I will diffently use it next time I make up a batch.. that a great idea and I never hacve though of it. I am also thinking about putting some fresh farlic minced in as well... got tons of the stuff in the garden (same place I get my worms)

RE: Feeding the reef tank

vincent_843 — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:19:20 GMT

Thanks, Eric.
Vincent

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:16:33 GMT

Yes, I think your cyano will cease on its own over time as the tank becomes used to the increased nutrient input and adjusts itself to the higher input level.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

troypt — Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:05:07 GMT

After having read this post, I have begun to feed my tank more. I now have cyano growing and am wondering what I should do. Should I just let the cyano take its course or should I do something to stop the cyano (i.e. chemi clean)? Either way, I plan on continuing with the increased feeding.

Thanks

Troy

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Mon, 18 Sep 2006 06:25:23 GMT

Phytoplankton has been documented as a food source (but not THE food source) in only a handful of coral species, ironically the ones we can't keep alive - some of the azooxanthellate soft corals. In the past, I have suggested that phytoplankton plays a role indirectly to corals by feeding zooplankton that our corals feed on, but I am no longer convinced that even this is particularly so for marine aquariums. People who use phytoplankton products may see increased growth in filter feeding species, but they might also end up with nutrient issues as has frequently been reported. As for DT's products, they are alive, which is good and unlike most other products on the market. Ultimately, does this makes a difference to corals? I doubt it, either conceptually or based on my own long term use of the DT's phytoplankton line.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

vincent_843 — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 07:32:42 GMT

Hi Eric,

Sorry to mis typo your name?

Thanks,

Vincent

RE: Feeding the reef tank

vincent_843 — Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:20:26 GMT

hello Erich,

What does this stuff,

DT'S Live Marine Phytoplankton Reef Blend

do? How often to use?

thanks, vincent

RE: Feeding the reef tank

tomchio — Wed, 06 Sep 2006 04:43:09 GMT

Just wanted to chime in and say thanks for all the informative posts!

RE: Feeding the reef tank

GeorgeW — Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:31:38 GMT

Eric,

First time poster. I got your book about 3 months ago and it took me a while to get through it cover-to-cover. Fantastic. The recipe caught my attention since it would allay some of the costs of feeding only LFS bought food preparations. It had never even ocurred to me that I could DIY my coral food.

All I can say is, thanks for the ... unique smell.

Now that I've tried a version of the recipe, I had a few questions, if don't mind:

I used Flying Fish roe (big Asian market near my house), but the eggs don't seem to pulverize in the food processor much. Is that normal? Can corals intake particles that large?

Can I use Salmon roe (about 1/8-1/4" diameter) instead or in addition since it seems those would be chopped better by the food processor?

Is seaweed (as in dried sushi nori) good to use as part of the dried food portion?

On the shellfish (mussels and oysters), should we follow the people rules for these foods? Not in months with "r"'s or whatever it is, checking to make sure all mussels are alive before we use them, etc?

For the shrimp, you say "I squeeze the heads and usually use some of the "meat" in the fish food". Does this mean you don't simply shell the shrimp and add them to the processor, but just use the heads or do you use the whole shrimp body + the head juice? What about the remnants of their last meals? The ones I got from my Asian market looked like they fed at a Caligulan orgy before they were caught.

Thanks.

George

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:43:21 GMT

Phytoplankton strictly defined are planktonic forms, but all sorts of phytoplankton, single cells, can also attach to substrate. Diatoms are a prime example of a very important trophic link that can be in the water or attached. I find in my tank that scraping the tank walls provides enough phytoplankton. Detritus is also coated in single celled algae. The actual needs of phytoplankton in a reef tank depend on the species present and the need for that food source versus other similar small particulate foods.

There is no pseudo-phytoplankton. There is pseuodplankton which is composed of things like gametes and non-living biological material that is not classed into particulate material and may also include microbial aggregates.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

RainerFeyer — Tue, 08 Aug 2006 05:17:00 GMT

Eric et al,

Thanks for the great threat!

I always wondered about something re: Phytoplankton: Shouln't there be enough growth of it in the refugium to supply the main display tank, or is it the wrong type of algae growing in fuges?

May be a stupid question-I have seen people refer to it as pseudo-phytoplankton?

Rainer

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:14:09 GMT

Super - glad it helped.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

redsonja — Tue, 01 Aug 2006 10:21:16 GMT

This is just the thread I need, and why I came to this board today. Thanks Eric for the "updated" recipe. We just decided to give SPS another try with a nice Turbinaria reniformis and I am researching what to feed it after lights-out in the quarantine tank. So far it's looking good and enjoying its spot near the sea-swirl outlet but I want to feed it ASAP. Now I'm off to Whole Foods, and (I don't really *need* this as an excuse but it still works) to check out the new Asian market nearby.

-Sonja
ps - finally got the MACNA registrations and all those details done, see y'all there!

RE: Feeding the reef tank

jgreen1025 — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 20:19:43 GMT

Eric Borneman (7/17/2006)

Please recall that the recipe was first made a lot of years ago and I think it is still pretty good. Also recall that it is not a recipe fixed in stone...

Thanks, I guess that's pretty much what I thought (but thought I'd ask anyway). When I first made it I worried about getting proper ratios and using the same things you listed, but I quickly realized that it could be modified to whatever I could find. Regardless, I think the tank inhabitants seem to like it.

My gut feeling is that it is useful but a watered down version of Selco, much like Selcon is a watered down version of Selco but cannot comment with any degree of certainty.

Thanks. Since it was free I'll add some of it to the next batch of food I make.

John

RE: Feeding the reef tank

captbunzo — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:00:10 GMT

Vita-Chem is a relatively inexpensive vitamin supplement.
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=BE1131

I believe have heard this recommended by Steven Pro, but do not remember completely. I think of less as a watered down version of Selcon, which I thought was known for its HUFA content, and more of just a general vitamin supplement. I actually use both Vita-Chem and Selcon to soak foods in when feeding.

Just my opinion, of course.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:33:28 GMT

Please recall that the recipe was first made a lot of years ago and I think it is still pretty good. Also recall that it is not a recipe fixed in stone, and that several products have come out since that I think are excellent. For example, I still use a bit of Golden Pearls, but cut back on that a lot. I also have gone to using much larger quantities of DT's oyster eggs in its place. I have become very fond of Cyclop-eeze, but these are too big for some species.

I also am not sure that the percent of dry is higher than the others...depends on what I have on hand at the time. Mainly the answer to your question is the lack of available fresh foods that are small enough for capture and some fresh material liquefies or blenderizes better than others. Ideally, you would include live rotfiers, live cyclop-eeze, live Artemia nauplii, live copepods, etc. But this involves culture which is not practical for many, or those with time/labor issue constraints.

Vita-Chem - I do not have any definitive information on this product. I am familiar with it and think I tried it at one time in the past. My gut feeling is that it is useful but a watered down version of Selco, much like Selcon is a watered down version of Selco but cannot comment with any degree of certainty. To me, I would rather pay for product rather than water and Selco has a long and tried and true history as a good quality supplement as an enrichment agent.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

jgreen1025 — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 19:51:32 GMT

Also, another question for when you get back - what is Vita-Chem? I 'won' a small bottle at the local club meeting over the weekend (I won it because my birthday was closest ), but I'm hestitant to add anything, especially when it promises to make my fish "swim faster and jump higher," etc... About the only helpful commnts I found compared it to Selco and Selcon. I'm assuming I can use it in the same way? Could I add it to a brine shrimp culture? Thanks.

John

RE: Feeding the reef tank

jgreen1025 — Tue, 11 Jul 2006 22:42:17 GMT

Eric,

I've been using your recipe (well, a variation based on what I could find) for several months now and wondered about something. Why do you only use 10-20% of fresh seafood and not more? Also, why dried aquarium foods for the majority? Wouldn't a majority of the fresh and frozen foods be better?

John

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:29:05 GMT

absolutely ok. They sell fresh fish roe sometimes at one of our Asian markets and when its there, I buy it.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Coolrunnings — Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:28:58 GMT

Eric,

Would it be wise to use roe from fish I have caught such as speckled trout , yellowtail snapper or dolphin. i usually find roe in these fish when cleaning them. And if its ok to use, do i just rinse them out or do i have to do anything in particular to the membrane and veins around the roe.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:52:52 GMT

>>DO NOT USE THIS FOR BLENDER FOR HUMAN FOODS if you blend oysters (as well as other shellfishes for that matter).<<

Well, I agree there is a risk using raw fresh shellfish (see warning labels on the foods themselves), but lots of people eat shellfish raw including me. But, they can carry pathogens, especially in warmer months or depending on where they are collected.

>> Eric had mentioned the vibriostatic potential of blending oysters. I would like to reitterate this point as I study Vibrio Vulnificus <<

Vibrio vulnificus

>>and I would not like to receive a clinical isolate from YOU! Vibrio is a ubiquitous pathogen with extreme virulence factors.<<

Its not just V. vulnificus but a host of potential bacteria pathogens. Then again, pathogenic Vibrios are all over the surface of our corals, including V. vulnificus that has been isolated and certainly in sediments, etc. V. alginolyticus, cholerae and parahaemolyticus are also common mucosal flora species.

>> The family Vibrionaceae is also capable of the VBNC (Viable but non-culturable) state

I think that should be VNC...generally the "but" is not part of the acronym

, thus unless you are willing to rinse your blender with ethanol before blending human consumables I wouldn't reccommend it. Just buy a separate blender for those fish and coral foods!<<

Good advice, and one should always excercise caution with potential pathogens. But, let's not get paranoid, either. Its also a good idea not to touch corals with bare hands and cuts or with bare hands without washing them throroughly afterwards. Some of the toxins of soft corals and zoanthids make a case of vibriosis look like a happy alternative. So, I think precaution is a good thing, but capitalized "NEVER" statements for shellfish are unwarranted.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

rwbogard — Wed, 26 Apr 2006 07:54:32 GMT

A few individuals have replied that they are using food processors. DO NOT USE THIS FOR BLENDER FOR HUMAN FOODS if you blend oysters (as well as other shellfishes for that matter). Eric had mentioned the vibriostatic potential of blending oysters. I would like to reitterate this point as I study Vibrio Vulnificus and I would not like to receive a clinical isolate from YOU! Vibrio is a ubiquitous pathogen with extreme virulence factors. The family Vibrionaceae is also capable of the VBNC (Viable but non-culturable) state, thus unless you are willing to rinse your blender with ethanol before blending human consumables I wouldn't reccommend it. Just buy a separate blender for those fish and coral foods!

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 05:52:30 GMT

Well, not really. Sorry to hear about the lack of availability in your area. I have so many Asian markets here, and I have never tried or had to find them online. I know sea urchin used to be available in a frozen cube flat at LFS's, but haven't seen it in a long time

RE: Feeding the reef tank

redpaulhus — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:12:19 GMT

Sea urchin roe
Flying fish roe

Any suggestions on where to find these ? Online or otherwise ?

The few times I've seen either online have been either expensive (think caviar sites), seasoned (ditto) or both...

The larger Asian supermarkets near me have lots of fresh and frozen seafood, but I've yet to see roe of any sort, and my local fishmongers are typical New England seafood shops - great for stuff that gets tossed in batter and deep fried (scallops, schrod, etc) , but not so much of the lighter fare.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:40:11 GMT

sure, but I would probably stick to smaller foods and/or puree the mix more completely (Artemia nauplii, oyster eggs, rotifers, cyclop-eze, etc.)

RE: Feeding the reef tank

I'm A Dork Fish — Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:14:40 GMT

Would you recommend your food for an SPS dominated tank?

Andrea

RE: Feeding the reef tank

rutledgek — Wed, 08 Feb 2006 20:01:54 GMT

mix in the frozen thawed ingredients

I am sorry if this is a stupid question but you thaw evreythinb before you clend or chop it correct. I bought froze shrimp, as well as the frozen food cubes and was wondering if I should thaw it before making the food.

Thanks for your help.
Kevin

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:47:17 GMT

No metal halide is not required, and not for any clam. What is different is the range of some clams...some are in 40 feet of water or more and are HUGE - some are intertidal (i.e. crocea) - and the trick is getting enough PAR by whatever means. A 70w metal halide or a 175 watt metal halide, or in particular if it is a narrow band bulb, may put out less PAR than some white power compacts, and for some clams neither might be enough, or plenty, depending on the PAR reaching them and the species and the size. So, tell the clam police to apply some logic and maybe see some clams in the field. If you cooked croceas with 1000watt MH directly under the water surface, they'd probably be fine, and if you put a medium derasa in a 75 with some PC's it would probably be fine.But, they do feed, and although nearly autotrophic (moreso than corals when adults), they will still benefit in suboptimal light getting appropriate foods (i.e. phytoplankton, bacteria, etc.)

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Will — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:38:17 GMT

I'm just trying to find a way to tell the clam police to hush when they bicker "you have to have metal halide lighting to keep a clam". And I'm really wondering whether it's true or not for all clams. I know it's not for several Tridacnid species, but I'm not sure about some. I'm considering one for my nano as a nutrient exporter, but that's best left for another topic.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:44:45 GMT

Light, in shallow water corals and to some depth can supply up to and over 100% of the carbon needs of corals. Some amino acids are leaked out, but not much. Most of the nitrogen (required for proteins, tissue growth, etc.) come from heterotrophy, not light.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Will — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:06:59 GMT

I wonder if this type feeding lowers symbiotic corals' high dependence on light. Or if the two nutrient sources are greatly independent. Light is essentially and effectively a nutrient, IMO. Your thoughts?

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Sun, 22 Jan 2006 05:13:39 GMT

That's a another very interesting and effective way to go about it, and it sounds like the results show! Nice post.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Go Phish — Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:22:00 GMT

Every evening I feed about 13 different LFS foods, frozen, liquid, Golden Pearls about 8 different sizes, cyclopeeze, rotifers pretty much the gambit, but I do leave my skimmer on and all pumps. I start with tank water then add my brew, I then use a turkey baster to blast into my tank. I and I mean blast, my tank is only a 30 gallon with a HUGE bio load, after me feeding the tank, it is a murky green, hard to see through, I feed this way every evening, yes my filter socks (purchased from Marine Depot) catch a lot of food, my skimmer goes a little nuts. I also everyday clean my filter sock (takes 5 minutes) to make sure no nitrates build up. Since I started this HEAVY feeding regime my tank has flourished! I have like 37 different corals in the tank, 3 clams and I believe 10 fish, with this bio-load and my heavy feeding, I still have ZERO nuisance algae. Feeding is so important, people go nuts over lights, then feed sparing, I do not get it. Well sorry this was long, but I just want to say how strong I believe feeding our critters is to the over all success. Well that is my philosophy anyways and it works for me. Good Luck to all of my fellow reefers in keeping their critter healthy and strong.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:48:44 GMT

No problemo - mil gracias!

RE: Feeding the reef tank

TippyToeX — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:54:42 GMT

Pardon me, just adding some good links. Hope you don't mind Eric.

Reef Food

From the Food of Reefs to the Food of Corals

The Food of Reefs, Part 3: Phytoplankton

The Food of Reefs, Part 4: Zooplankton

The Food of Reefs, Part 5: Bacteria

The Food of Reefs, Part 6: Particulate Organic

The Food of Reefs, Part 7: Dissolved Nutrients

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:54:16 GMT

I can't easily answer your question. Every tank is different, but it sounds as though you have good export. I also don't know what to say in regards to what is too high in terms of nitrate and phosphate or their role in producing the cyano blooms or what is "too high." If you had asked me this a few months ago, I could have given you a response, but our salt study has me shrugging my shoulders right not as to everything in regards to nutrients and coral v algal v cyanobacterial growth. I can't elaborate further, yet.

In terms of feeding more vs more often, I think more often is a more natural emulation, but have no evidence to say that it is actually more beneficial to the tank.

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Reefski — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:15:38 GMT

Eric:

thank you for your thoughtful reply. i will continue to feed your homemade food. after all, i have a few pounds of it now. and the whole tank loves it. i will try slowly, fearlessly increasing the amount. i do have a lot of coralline algae, black, yellow, and white sponges and forams in the tank.

i will keep skimming. i have a EuroReef skimmer and an Aqua C EV-400 skimmer on this tank. i will keep an eye on nitrates. as the feeding level increases should i see an increase in nitrates? how high is too high? i have also just set up the modified rdsb that has 8" sand and some LR.

my tank was well established for several years before it was my tank. minimal feeding. after it became mine i fed more than the previous owner did. just fish food, algae sheets and cubes of various types, mysis, etc. i did get cyano in a low flow area of my sump( i put LR in the sump which blocked the flow and a light ) and then cyano was also in the tank and bleaching of several SPS corals. lost a couple, a couple others are mostly bleached.

nitrates over 20.

all the soft corals were and are fine with the exception of a brain coral that had cyano on the septa and i thought i was going to loose it. since i have started the "Borneman recipe" feeding two weeks ago it has recovered to the point where almost all the septa are healed over with new tissue.

right now i am feeding twice a day. 4-5 sq inches of algae sheet and one cube of the recipe at each feeding. to increase the amt it seems like it would be better to add another feeding instead of more at one of the two feedings. what do you think?

RE: Feeding the reef tank

Eric Borneman — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 06:15:22 GMT

Hi Carl:

I have explained this before on other forums, but I'm glad you brought it up so I can explain it here.

So, I don't want to generalize to every tank, but, in general, I think reef tanks are capable of processing much much more food than the average aquarist feeds. A long time ago, when there were not efficient skimmers and people didn't keep reef tanks and tanks were fish only consisting of dead substrate (bacteria and algae coated) and fish and glass and non-export filtration (no skimming), was when the "rule" of don't overfeed was instilled. Having kept a freshwater tank, and experimental tanks without the standard "reef tank" design, it's true. If you overfeed, you end up with nutrient problems.

But, this is also the "rule" we are told and accept when we first start a reef tank. So, we feed x amount, and our systems equilibrate to deal with that volume of food. There will be no more and no less life than can be supported by the food that is either produced within or added to the aquarium. If you add more, there will be an increase in nutrients (unless the skimmer is just really effective, in which case it may not really register). But, if you feed more, eventually, you will see nutrients start to climb, and the first things that respond through fast growth are bacteria, cyanobacteria, and fast growing algae (single celled diatoms, turfs, etc.). Eventually, the system reaches a new higher steady state level, and everything is again limited. The nutrient levels in the tank disappear again. You can see this over and over again, and it is my experience that most reef tanks can handle a ridiculously large amount of food. Between the skimming, the corals, filter feeders, sponges, bacteria, coralline, worms, microfauna, meiofauna, etc., there are a lot of mouths. With this extra nutrition comes more reproduction, too....i.e. more mouths...which need more food. Eventually, of course, you reach a point where you have max'ed out what you can add, but you will be surprised just how much this is.

Now, when you start feeding more, most people see an algal increase or cyano, and back off immediately. Don't. This is the same phenomenon as happened when the tank was first set up. Its a community response to more nutrients. It's like cycling the tank. First come the diatoms, then the red slime, then the hair algae, then it dies, then corallines take over. Every year in the ocean, there is a cycle in the spring of a phytoplankton bloom, followed by a zooplankton bloom. Same sort of thing here. Now, the one caveat is that many nuisance algae are strong space competitors that you do not want to become heavily established during these periods. Eventually, they will take up the new nutrient additions and self-limit, but as plants are autotrophic light alone can keep them going. So, you have a tank with no measurable nutrients in the water column, but can still have a lot of algae. Now what? Well, the primary control to avoid this on reefs - and in tanks - is herbivory. So, you get to go purchase a new tang that you wanted, or you get some more snails, or an urchin. If done slowly, and you already have enough herbivores, just the increase in microherbivory by larger numbers of amphipods may be enough to control it. Or, maybe your super skimmer and ozone are in place, and whatever you pour in and is not eaten quickly is just pulled straight out. I have seen some tanks that I think could have a constant drip of food all day and all night, simply due to the export power.

Anyway, start slowly, be patient, and within a year you'll probably find you can dump ridiculously large amounts of food in the tank without any measurable nutrients in the tank.