Marine Depot Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Marine Systems and Husbandry – by Anthony Calfo / Coral farm build (take 2) / Latest Posts

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:59:38 GMT

Nice Bro,

I really like those tanks. They can bow a bit if you fill them up all the way, but they are tall enough that you only have to go 1/2 to 2/3 the way up. Good luck. You guys can come down any time you like. I should be finished in the next 3-4 weeks. Summer time would be best. Its gonna be tough fitting alot of people in there unless we can open the garage doors.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

xoomercom — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:55:13 GMT

^^^ Yeah, the reason I bought these is because they are not as wide and will fit as a temporary storage/future sump in the apartment. I got two of those myself which even if I keep water lever fairly low will give me about 240 gallons of volume. Pretty good for tanks that weight ~60lbs each and are virtually indestructable. Easy to move and won't shatter. Anyhow, Rob, you are doing one heck of a job with your new farm, I'd like to visit when you get it going. Maybe a BAS SIG trip?

For those who are interested the larger square ones (that Rob has mentioned) are also available but around $180 a piece

http://cgi.ebay.com/48x44x29-BUCKHORN-HDPE-FIXED-WALL-PALLET-BULK-CONTAINER_W0QQitemZ120229849873QQihZ002QQcategoryZ56996QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:55:47 GMT

Call me any time you like Faz,

My number is on my website.

Hi Bernard,

Good prices, but those tanks are smaller than the ones I use. Mine are 43"wide and those are like 29". I found someone who has a bunch of them for 100 bucks or less, but they are used like mine with the holes in them. We did so much work in the new place and it came out so nice we didnt want to use old and dirty tanks, so we built our own from plywood. I am going to use the 5 I already have, but thats it.

Rob

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

xoomercom — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:13:25 GMT

Hello Rob, this is Bernard from Brooklyn Aquarium Society.

I don't know if you remember me, I spoke to you awhile back asking for rubbermaid tubs. Well, I hope you can get some use of a day of research that I did trying to get the best price on these tubs. Here are the links, they are shipped directly from a manufacturer. Just call the guy (Mike) and speak to him. If anyone can find them cheaper, good luck. I don't think it gets any better than these.

Ebay Item number: 120221646202

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120221646202&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002

Ebay Item number: 120221646329

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120221646329&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

fazgood — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:30:12 GMT

Alti,

TOO MUCH DETAIL ! ! ;o)

I am really going to stress efficiency. They made me go through this LEAN/6 Sigma training at work and this may actually be a good application of it. With having to keep a day job I need to focus all of the designs on efficiency and low maintenance even if the cost is a bit higher up front, so your advise is well recieved, now to just figure out how to implement it.

The main thing that Anthony mentioned was that old guys should not be lugging around heavy stuff. And I am feeling my age. If I can't design some inexpensive automation into the plan I will almost for sure fail. Many of your ideas look quite well thought out and I am learning a lot but like you say, it's not the same on paper as it is in real life.

I'd love to chat with you on the phone some time. If you could find the time I can PM you my number.

Faz

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 07:02:34 GMT

Hi Faz,

Im screwing everything

I am using a good exterior pain on all wood surfaces.Even the ones that will be covered in plywood. I dont want any water or humidity to come in contact with the wood. These structures are permanent and we want them to last forever, so its worth the extra effort to protect them now so we dont have any issues a few years down the road.

Good luck on your project. I would like to really stress the point of starting out small scale. I would have had no idea what I needed to build and how to maximaize my space if I didnt have the last 3 years experience behind me. Its easy to write things down on paper, but understanding what you will need in tierms of maintenace, storage, dosing, feeding, etc. is almost impossible to get right with no experience. Reducing the ammount of daily physical labor and being able to properly maintain your systems in an optimal fashion is much more important than just squeezing in as many tanks as you can and figuring out your work scedule later. Building things right from the beginning is priceless.

My water room/workstaion/culture station is a good example. I havnt figured it out completely yet since I just built it yesterday, but at least I know exactly what I will need to get it built right. The water storage will be moved to a new room behind the building when the greenhouse is finished, but for now I have to make due with what I have. Its barely enough for the time being, but it should work.

On the 2 shelves on the right I will have 6 55 gal barrels and 2 125 gal aquariums under the counter tops to hold water. 5 of the 6 barrels will remain full of fresh water at all times and overflow into the 125 gal tanks when full. I will be using the 125's as mixing tanks for water changes. One should be enough for weekly water changes and I can use both for monthly changes. This gives me a max water storage capacity of 500 gal in case of power failure or well/pump problems. The 6th barrel on the top shelf will be used to gravity feed topoff water. It will have its own RO unit to ensure that it is always full or close to full. It will be plumbed into the dosing station so I can apply additives to the topoff water as needed.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

fazgood — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 18:37:26 GMT

You have been quite busy. Are you nailing or screwing everything? Aso, did you think about spraying the paint? Given the choice between painting and giving up a kidney, I would go for the kidney so anything that could speed the process would get my vote. IT's looking great. I would love to come visit some time and see how things are going. I think I may be following in your footsteps in time.

Best of luck,

Faz

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 18:28:38 GMT

I wasnt able to get much more done on the tanks themselves, but we finished most of the major framing for all the shelves. I cant start epoxying until there is no more saw dust and major construction going on. We basically bui;t heavy duty shelves around the whole perimeter of the room. They have to be stong enough to hold aquariums, water holding vessels, dosing equipment, etc. Im not looking forward to painting everything, but it has to get done. I was out there til after midnigh last night and half the day today and I barely got any of it done. Getting a good coat on every single nook and cranny of the woodwork is neverending. When I think I will need 3-4 coats on the shelves and outsides of the tanks and even more inside, I get tired just thinking about it

Got some barrels in to start making water.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 17:10:43 GMT

I am going to coat them all with epoxy. Each row of 4 tanks will be an independant system. There will be 1 or 2 species in each row. The platforms above the tanks will hold acryllic surge devices. Each tank will have 6-10 surges on it. I am going to drill drains about 8" from the top of each tank so the water will drain down the levels into the sump. I am hoping there is enough of a drop to actually have the higher tanks surge into the tank below it. It would be great to have 30-40 gallons surging from tank to tank, but if it doesnt work, im happy with it just overflowing.

Lighting is one 250 watt MH over each tank with a DIY reflector. Ive used a singlw bulb over a 2'x3' area,4'x4' area and 3'x6' area and I have had the most success with the 4'x4' lit with a single bulb.

This really is only a stepping stone until we get the green house up. Once it is up and running the vast majority of the broodstock will go in there and the corals I have plans for 2-5 years down the road will be housed in these systems. I hate to carry any corals, but I have to think towards the future in the event that the supply of wild caught colonies becomes limited. There's another 1200-1500 gallons of tanks going on the near wall of this room so I should have enough room for everything until the greenhouse is finished.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

CTReefer — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 06:58:34 GMT

I can't wait to see the finished product when it's operational! Are you just going to line them with material of some type or are you placing individual tanks in each opening? What will be the flow between each unit & will they all be exposed to the same syetem water? What about lighting, etc. etc... Just curious????

Steve

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:41:45 GMT

Oops forgot to add more pics

We finished building the frame of the second system, made the support colums and moved the surges to this system and screwed it all together.

Then we started with the plywood.

Gorrilla glue really makes a mess

Now some insulation

some more plywood

Tried to get a pic of both tanks, but the room is too small. I had to get up on a ladder in the corner to squeeze this much in.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:04:34 GMT

Anthony,

I cant give an exact number until we see how much epoxy this will take. The lumber, screws, insulation and wood cost us appx $.50 per gallon.

Thanks Doug, I did a little experimenting with the epoxy this week. The coloring agents were terrible. Unless I used the pour method, the tints dont work very well. I am going to speak with a rep from the epoxy company tomorrow to see if I can paint in between coats.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Anthony Calfo — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:42:06 GMT

have you estimated a final cost per gallon to produce these vessels? They look like they could be quite marvelous, but I wonder how they price compare. Are your building supplies rather cheap (affordable lumber in PA indeed).

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

dougwilliams — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:00:12 GMT

I didnt prime or anything like that. I wanted the epoxy to bond to the plywood, and I had concerns about a skin layer of paint peeling away - basically just epoxy bonding to paint and thats it. So I put down a skim coat of epoxy direct onto the plywood and then used that to stick the fioberglass mat into so it would hold. I have a few post fiberglass epoxy coats until it looked reasonably glossy all around. Mind you, thats what I've done so far, I havent yet water tested mine yet either. I didnt have any problems with wood warpage from epoxy soaking in...

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:21:18 GMT

Thanks for the tips Doug,

Buckets are only temporary. We just wanted to get some rough estimates on finished dimensions.

I figured the wood flour would be enough, but we have just been double reinforcing everything we have made so far and I just want to make sure this thing is as sealed as possible. There's alot at stake here and I hate to start springing leaks when my mother colonies are in there

How did you soak the plywood before you epoxied it? Do you do it with the eopxy itself or with some kind of primer?

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

dougwilliams — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:03:20 GMT

Oh - in that last pic - the setup with all the multi-level tanks looks really cool - I'd love to see a display setup like that sometime. But please tell me that you don't intend on keeping things perched atop buckets when it's all in use though... right?

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

dougwilliams — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:00:48 GMT

Hi -
I'm almost complete with my own plywood/epoxy tanks -

For you - if this is a coral farm why bother tinting/painting the epoxy at all? Over time anyway I assume you'll have some coraline algae growth anyway. If you do want to anyhow - I would use an epoxy tinting agent. I'm not sure what kind of paint you can get to stick to the epoxy, so I definitely don't recommend epoxy/paint/epoxy top coat. Maybe some of the Krylon Fusion? - My personal opinion is to tint the epoxy if you want to go that route, or some sort of epoxy additive.

As for seams, I bonded all my wood pieces together with Gorilla glue, and then ran a small bead along each seam. It's waterproof and foams up and fills nicely and can be sanded down (albeit not easily). I liked the wood flour and epoxy idea, but if you're going to to lay fiberglass over, then I don't think I'd bother. The fiberglass is hard to lay and epoxy into (sharp) corners, so I had experimented with a few filleting ideas (urethane spray foam sanded down to make a 45 degree transition). Pure chopped strand fiberglass (not in mat form) would probably be ideal, but as far as I know that process is out for non-production line uses. My final outcome (for myself msotly) is to use mat as much as possible, and strips of fiberglass to work around all the edges.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:28:08 GMT

Thanks Scott,

Great link.

Anthony,

The corners are double and triple braced in most spots. Plywood on the inside and outside will also help strengthn the structure. I basically doubled the reinforcement that I used on ym other plywood tanks, so im absolutely sure it will hold without a problem. The actual water depthi in the tanks is not going to exceed 18" so its not that bad.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Anthony Calfo — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:10:24 GMT

do consider adding horizontal perpendicular cross bracing (glued and mitered corners... and tied with lag screws if not bolts (better))... a tremendous source of easy and inexpensive reinforcement (like "ribs"). At present... your models are engineered to take the brunt of bowing stress on the top and bottom braces. This is a huge stress in the corners. Without the aforementioned bracing, you will likely need a four-sided capture (metal... riveted aluminum or welded steel (better))

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Conesus Kid — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:09:26 GMT

Looks awesome!

You may want to check out this forum:
http://fingerlakesreef.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=13

There's some folks with lots of plywood experience.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:37:35 GMT

Its been quite a while since I updated this thread. The last few weeks have mostly been spent working on the structure itself, but we finally started bulding tanks this week. We origionally were going to use the plastic pallet type tanks, but decided that building our own out of plywwod would be better. I found a nice epoxy resin to seal the tanks with made by MAS epoxies. Its a bit more expensive than some of the other brands I found, but it seems to be highly endorsed for its quality and strength by boaters. Hopefully we will be able to do some experimentation with it next week. If anyone has any experience with epoxy and plywood, I'm all ears. I plan on using wood flour to thiken the epoxy and fill in the seams with it. Then I wanted to use fiberglass strips to reinforce and strengthen them. Painting them is another issue. Some people recommend tinting the epoxy itself and others recommend painting the surface after sealing it with epoxy and then adding another coat or 2 on top of that. Here's some pics of the tanks. Some of the legs and blocks are only temporary, we just wanted to set everything up to make sure it will all fit together properly.

This last one shows the platform we built above the tanks for the surge devices. Not sure if it will work or not, but I will also have each one of the tanks surge into the one below it.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:45:51 GMT

Funny you say that Tuna. I was thinking the same thing today. Who needs sleep anyway

My kinds already love helping me make frag plugs and boxes. They are only 4 and 5 years old, so hopefully I can get them chopping corals in a few years

Thanks Anthony,

As far as cost effectiveness goes, natural gas is definately the best option, but my only choices are oil and propane. Electric will cost way more. We scrapped the forced hot air unit since the costs were way to high and im sure it wont last long if it has all that humid salty air going through it. I am now leaning towards using a modine 175,000 BTU propane heater as the main source of heat. We alreasy installed dedicated electrical circuits for electric heaters, so we may just use them this year and see how it works. Im fairly sure the radiant system with the tubing run into the sump would be much more cost effective, but im not sure if its worth the $6000 its gonna cost to buy the equipment. At the old farm the highest electrical costs we had were in the winter time due to the heaters. The basement gets down to the mid 50's so raising the temps 20-25 degrees takes alot of wattage. If I can keep the room temps around 70 I dont think it will be so bad to heat it up a bit more with the electrical heaters. If it doesnt work out I can easily install the radiant system next year.

Im really hoping to delay the move a bit longer so I can run the new systems in the dead of winter without risking my mother colonies. Im actually more worried about the summer temps. Having to heat it a bit more only costs more money, where cooliing can turn into a nightmare. We are going to seal up the garage doors from the outside about half way up with removable walls. The top will be window screen, so in the summer we can open the garage doors and have 2, 4'x10' openings to draw air into the farm. I having decided on fan size yet, but im thinking somewhere in the 4000-6000 cfm range. Im also going to use 2 circulation fans on the cieling with about 1200-2000 cfm each. The basement at the old place never got over 70 degrees in the summer so I never had to deal with heat. I hope airflow alone will be enough .

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Anthony Calfo — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:36:09 GMT

check your local utilities websites bro... ours (in Pittsburgh) have online tools that allow you to toggle your various appliances (furnace, fridge, washer, drier, AC) with each running on gas vs electric to help you figure out with local ambient temps and local utility costs... how much it will cost to run any given item a certain way.

This utility on my Electric COs website convinced me to stick with natural gas for my furnace and drier! Kudos to the Electric Co for the service.

What is your electricity cost bro? Ours is 16 cents per kw hr and its still cheaper for us to use natural gas to heat the greenhouses, fishrooms, etc.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

The Big Tuna — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:59:13 GMT

Dude,

Theres an easy solution to making more time available to the corals bro, quit sleeping, don't plan on doing nuthin on yer day off, & con yer kids into thinking it's "Cool" to help do water changes But ya may have to up yer alchol intake to compensate for da changes to the normal routine

Keep up da good work,

Joshua

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:19:54 GMT

Sounds interesting. Let me know how that shade cloth does.

I just hope im going to be able to handle this much water. Its not bad since im going to be living on the same property, but its tough when there are so many construction projects going on.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

The Big Tuna — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:31:03 GMT

Sounds like a rock solid plan bro! Found a cool new product that I am going to try on the greenhouse this spring & summer - Blue poly shadecloth- absorbs % of red light & is said to help avoid certain corals from getting that "bleached out" look from too much light

Ah might have to make me a road trip up north this summer

Joshua

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:31:04 GMT

Oops, forgot to mention the greenhouse . One is going up right behind that building. Hopefully we will have it finished this summer. Heres some pics of what we got done these last 2 days.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:06:22 GMT

It is a ton of work. At first it seemed like we were getting so much dont so fast, but now all the finishing touches are taking forever. These last few days we got some windows in and finished most of the sheetrock. With a little luck we can finish most of the structural work in the next 2 weeks and get to building the tanks.

I am going to seal this thing up as much as humanly possible. I am also installing fans similar to greenhouse cooling fans and vents to remove as much humidity as I can.

Cycling these tanks shouldnt be too much of an issue Josh. I have tons of cycled rock and sand in my current systems that I will be using to seed the new tanks. Most of the tanks in this new farm will be the white pallet tanks I was using at the old place. I am going to have 4 sets of 4 of these tanks and will use one old one on each system. 3 out of the 4 sump I am going to use will be sumps that have been in use for the last 3 years. I dont expect much of a cycle at all, but I am not going to rush anything into the new systmes until im sure they are ready.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

The Big Tuna — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:05:35 GMT

Alti,

Nice new spot bro, looks like plenty of room. Are ya gonna build a greenhouse out back yonder? With the art/poster collection that came wt the building I thought for awhile that ya had moved down here to North Carolina!! Beers, Women, & Dogs, YEEEHAAAWWW But seriously, how are you gonna cycle the new systems bf moving the corals in? Are ya gonna use the same table designs as you have now?

Keep up tha good work,

Joshua

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

JoshF — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:08:57 GMT

Man, that looks like a lot of work! Thanks for posting.

Another option for a vapor barrier is using a PVA primer paint. This can then be easily followed by either of Anthony's suggestions. I live in Seattle which does not require large aquariums to have humidity issues and just finished building my house. A vapor barrier is required by code (and common sense) here, and we went with this option. It just sprays or rolls on like any other paint. HTH

Josh

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 11:34:19 GMT

No vapor barrier. I was planning on using multiple coats of paint and either bathroom paneling or acryllic sheets over the bottom 4' of all the sheetrock. I will look into that foil.

We are still up in the air on heating this place. We are planning on using a radiant heating system to heat the water and a forced hot air unit to heat the room. This looks like the most expensive part of the whole building and I hate to make a mistake here. I was hoping to incorporate some type of ventilation system which could be hooked up to the forced air ductwork. The air would be sucked in from the ceiling vents along the sides of the room and blown out through a wall on the second floor. Initially we planned on using a regular greenhouse fan and pull the air out through the 2 crawlspaces on either side of the building, but all that hot moist air going through the roof and rafters didnt seem like such a good idea. This is the next major project we need to handle and any input you can give would be greatly appreciated.

RE: Coral farm build (take 2)

Anthony Calfo — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:18:36 GMT

super thanks for sharing my friend... and BTW, I dont think the vent on that wood burning stove is up to PA code :p

Joking aside... very nice work. A question/checkup here: have you employed some kind of vapor-barrier? Plastic sheeting behind the drywall? Incorporated into the insulation, etc?

If not, at least use a REALLY good paint (multi-coats) like Behr. I have used this for many years in my fishrooms and seen nothing else that holds up.

But better yet... if that drywall if not finished yet, simply paint it (to seal it) and then add a layer of TekFoil with the TefkFoil tape. Massive heat/energy savings... low initial outlay... and also extremely light reflective (97%). You can find it at Farmtek:

http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/cat1a;ft1_tekfoil_reflective_foil_insulation.html

Coral farm build (take 2)

Alti — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 19:39:13 GMT

Hi Everyone,
After all the new tanks and construction we did on the coral farm last year,
it was a real kick in the butt when the landlord told me that the building was
going to go have major renovations done in the spring. I cant risk having my corals
exposed to that kind of construction environtment so we decided to buy a new
property and start all over. We have been working on it on and off for about a month
now. Its hard since the new place is about 70 miles from where we live now and
I have to go back and forth to keep up with the old farm and spend some time with my
familly. For the most part all we have done til now is basic construction, but hopefully
we will get to water related construction soon.

Some pics of the building before we started.

What looked like a few small stacks of wood in the attic turned out to be a real mess.

Our first batch of supplies.We tried to use as much recycled material as we could.
We got alot of lumber and some other supplies that were going to the landfill. Its
more work to deal with it, but garbage is free and I'd rather use it than have it rot
at the dump.

Some progress shots of construction. We Should have 90% of the basic framing, insulation,
electrical, sheetrock, windows and doors done this week. The heating system will be next and
thats turning out to be alot more work and money than we expected.