Forums / Marine Systems and Husbandry – by Anthony Calfo / Archived Forums / I am ready to give up!!! / Latest Posts

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:47:21 GMT

Hi Anthony,

Well, I have done everything you recommended but I am sorry to say that the green hair algae has come back. There are big clumps of it on several rocks and on one of my favorite corals, and it is getting worse by the week.

Here are some of the things I’ve changed since I hijacked this thread last July:
- removed the DSB from the display and replaced it with thin layer for decoration
- added RDSB where refugium used to be
- removed some rocks and rearranged the rest to improve flow through and around them
- Added two Tunze nanostream 6045s to create 40x turnover
- built a new sump w/ skimmer pump in first compartment
- retrofitted a horizontal overflow onto my vertical corner overflow
- gave the skimmer a vinegar bath (it works better now)
- religiously perform a 15% water change weekly

There are currently 3 fish in the tank, fed every other day (no pack juice!), and about 20 LPS and SPS corals.

One thing I have not mentioned before is that I have been unable to control the pH no matter what I try. I actually thought it was too high several months ago until I realized I had a bad electrode. I bought a high quality monitor and electrode and the pH is chronically low. I am currently adding 70 ml/day of Randy’s 2-part recipe and use limewater for topoff. Alkalinity is about 2.9 meq/L, calcium 425, pH 7.9-8.1. I tried pushing the alk closer to 4 with higher doses of 2-part but the calcium level got too high and the pH didn’t change much. If I add a bunch of carbonate all at once to correct the alkalinity then the pH goes up for a few hours but then starts to drop again. I tried the aeration test using outside air several times and did not see any significant difference in the pH of outdoor-aerated water vs. tank water.

I can only think of a few more things to do but thought I’d run them past you before I proceed:
1) Replace the live rocks. The rocks I have are 8 years old and are almost completely encrusted with coralline algae. I think I remember you saying somewhere that burned out LR can drive down the pH.
2) Replace the RDSB with a new refugium (primarily for vegetable filtration). This should pull some CO2 out of the water and hopefully raise the pH some. Unfortunately I do not have room for both a refugium and RDSB.
3) Install a new DSB in the display in lieu of the RDSB and to increase buffering capacity. I think I am ready to give this another shot since my water circulation and husbandry have both improved a lot in the last year (and I think that after 10 years in the hobby I am no longer a total newbie!). I have room for a 3-4” oolitic bed.

Also, I’m not sure if the type of lighting I use contributes to the algae problem. I have 4 x 110w VHO bulbs over the tank, currently using 2 daylight and 2 50/50 bulbs. I change the bulbs twice a year but could replace one or both of the daylights with actinics if a spectrum shift might help.

I know you’re busy these days, but please feel free to advise and critique my thoughts as you are able.

Thanks,
Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:31:56 GMT

OK Anthony, I'll search again. No need for you to dismantle your wiring. I have read a lot of things about them online, and seen a lot of pictures of internal and external horizontal overflows, but not corner ones. I'll look again, though.
Thanks again,
Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 09:25:57 GMT

fabulous update Robert... very good to see the progress indeed. As for overflow pics... I have not removed my canopy (its a doozy - required disconnecting wiring) to take an illustrative pic for you. My apologies... but the application is so staggeringly common now that I would have thought you foudn pics already on the web. Search for "calfo overflow" on RC, etc and you'll see tons of hits... some internal, some corner, some external, etc

24/7 illumination is only approriate for Caulerpa species... all other popular marine algae need a rest period (lights off - respiration)

One algae species per small refugium for optimal success and reduced exudations of compounds by the competing algae that harm stony corals, etc

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:30:48 GMT

Radical,
I think that removing the deep sand bed out of my display was one of the main things that helped remedy the algae problem. I now have just a thin layer of sand in the tank for decoration, and the denitrification duties occur in a bucket of sand plumbed off the sump, per Anthony's advice. It seems to be working much better now.
Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

radicaljbr — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:04:53 GMT

Also, my new fuge/sump has some macro that I have to weed out about every two weeks. I leave the light on 24/7

Anthony, how much macro would you cut back when weeding out macro in your fuge?

Thanks

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

radicaljbr — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:01:45 GMT

that makes sense.

My main tank is about 5 inches and another in my new sump/refuge.

I never replaced my DSB so I am still having my algea problems

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:57:25 GMT

Remote Deep Sand Bed (or deep sand bed in a bucket)

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

radicaljbr — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:06:24 GMT

what is RSDB Something (deep sand bed)?

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sat, 11 Nov 2006 23:35:54 GMT

Forgot to say, nitrates are zero (that RDSB really works!) and the skimmer is skimming well with its pump in a dedicated sump chamber fed directly from the overflow!

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sat, 11 Nov 2006 23:31:21 GMT

And these are after.
Thanks again for all your help. I couldn't have done it without you!
Robert

P.S. If you ever get around to taking that picture of your horizontal corner overflow I'm still interested in seeing it. Thanks!

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sat, 11 Nov 2006 23:23:17 GMT

Hi Anthony,
Sorry I took so long to get back to you, but the project took longer than expected and I've been too busy to post. Anyway, here are some before and after pictures for you. These are before:

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:00:03 GMT

Hi Anthony,

I think maybe you forgot to take that picture of your corner overflow for me... If you ever have the time to do it that would be great. No hurry.

Latest update: lights ramping up, corals bouncing back. Brown diatoms on sand. Fish still in the other tank. Skimmer skimming, but not many big bubbles. Nitrates still 5, five or six weeks after addition of RDSB.

Thanks again,
Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:40:01 GMT

Lucky you! And you get to write it off as a business expense!

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:03:46 GMT

I did indeed visit that very same place, my friend... it is quite beautiful indeed A fine facility there too called Lusoreef (Lysmata research and livestock wholesaler)

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:27:55 GMT

Ahhh... Portugal. I once had the good fortune of visiting the Algarve coast in southern Portugal - it was paradise!

Thanks for taking the effort to photograph that for me. So nice of you.

Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:46:39 GMT

I do, yes... and I will try to get a pic of it (have to get creative and remove the fixed canopy above the tank). I just flew home from a conference in Portugal. Please remind me if I forget to post the picture after sopme days.

kindly, Anth-

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:13:01 GMT

Anthony,

Do you still have that 120 with a triangular corner overflow? Any chance of you posting a picture of it?

Thanks, Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 20:19:07 GMT

OK, so in effect you are talking about changing the square corner overflow into a larger triangular one? The existing overflow is made of acrylic, so I might be able to cut it myself (if I can screw up the courage!).
Thanks for the idea, and everything.
RK

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:07:28 GMT

the top bracing changes everything here... it is a dreadful obstruction. But there is a silver lining! Consider making a horizontal corner overflow! Take two strips of glass (floor and upright vertical wall) cut with mitered edges to fit into the rear corner of this tank and take up a space of 15-20 cm or so outwards. In effect, this style of overflow will "cap" your present vertical tower (which you will want/need to cut down... seek a local pro glass cutter for this job if you like... auto or residential glass and mirror cutter)

This will increase the length/edge of the weir and improve skimmed surface water quality while still being easy to service (getting hands in to clean out) unlike a rear wall horizontal overflow that would be handicapped by the brace above it.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:39:36 GMT

Anthony Calfo (9/5/2006)

(... over the present overflow holes are in position with a drilled floor to feed a floor drilled overflow as the case may be)

Not sure I understand you here, Anthony. Could you clarify this when you reply to the above?

Thanks again!!!!!!

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 15:16:58 GMT

Anthony,

This is a picture of my overflow. Note the glass braces around the top of the tank. I will have to re-route the return line and abandon the hole in the top brace. Am I correct in thinking that I'll need access to the new internal horizontal overflow for cleaning and maintenance? If so, then I don't think I should glue it to the back wall as you suggested. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also, since the new overflow will gravity drain from left to right, it will need to be tilted to the right, correct? I was thinking 0.5" drop from left to right over the 3.5' length of the overflow. What do you think? Any suggestions about how to tap into the left side of the existing overflow? Also, how do I figure out the height and width of the weir? I was thinking of making it the same width as the glass top brace. Teeth or no teeth at the top of the weir? I have the overall concept, but any specifics you could recommend would be much appreciated as I have not found any specifics anywhere else.

Thanks again,

Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:51:38 GMT

I agree with your notion for an interal horizontal overflow trough. It will actually be rather simple and easy. Just a bit of though involved. Pre-build the trough leaving the back open (to be glued to the back of the aquarium, over the present overflow holes are in position with a drilled floor to feed a floor drilled overflow as the case may be)

Be sure to have padded bar clamps and a level on hand to make a very precise install... and then drain the tank just low enough (4"... 6"?) to install this, let it set up (silicone or acrylic glue as warranted) and fill the tank back up shortly thereafter (minutes for acrylic... 24-48 hours minimum for silicone)

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:56:32 GMT

Anthony,

If I could trouble you for some more advice. I'm on to the next problem with my system - the overflow. The Tunze is creating some very nice circulation but now all the stuff that floats to the top is just going around in circles rather than into the overflow. I can't drain the tank again to make a new overflow and couldn't have drilled it anyway. What I'm thinking of doing is rigging up a horizontal overflow that dumps into the existing vertical corner overflow. I've read all the overflow threads and links that I could find but didn't see anyone who's tried something like this. Do you have any suggestions? I'm thinking it should be slightly higher at one end (is half an inch enough?) for gravity flow into the corner overflow. Not sure what dimensions to make it or whether to use teeth or no teeth on the weir. The tank has a 3.5" glass euro brace sticking out from all four sides around the top; because of this I don't think I can silicone a weir to the back wall (won't be able to clean or service the inside of it), so I'm thinking of rigging up a clamp or tie to hold it to the top brace. I know this sounds kind of crazy, but I really want/need to give it a shot. I can post a picture of the existing overflow this evening if that would help you (When are you off to Portugal?)

The other update is that I had to put most of the corals back into the display last night, even thought the RDSB hasn't cycled yet. Some of the corals (a platygyra and a stylophora) started to show some tissue recession and the others probably weren't far behind. They wound up sitting in the backup tank in the garage longer than I had planned; I hope they heal. I'll have to manage any nitrate problems with extra water changes until the RDSB kicks in. Do you think I should go ahead and put all the corals in the display before I ramp up the lights? I'm not sure if there is a benefit to having as many corals as possible to outcompete the bad algae for photons or if I should be more concerned about the bioload as the tank settles in. Also, any advice for the schedule of ramping up the lights?

Sorry for so many questions, but my whole plan changed this weekend when I saw even less stuff going into the overflow than before and then the changes in those two corals.

Thanks again for all your help. I appreciate it more than I can tell you.

Robert

Rad,

Your whole scenario just sounded so much like mine. Everything going fairly well then the algae bloom from hell after upgrading your lights. You had a lousy skimmer and my skimmer was underachieving because it wasn't getting the waste delivered to it due to a bad setup. Ignorance on my part (and, with all respect, presumably on yours too). So just a lot of parallels.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:28:02 GMT

cheers, Robert... very good to see/read my friend. I figued as much but feared the opposite (flow from left )

And yes/thank you... a nice brief holiday indeed. Now off to Portugal for a little bit of work. Thats as close to the Uk as I've been in a while :p I will make it to England one day soon I hope. I really need better beer

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

radicaljbr — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:25:12 GMT

Robert...Just curious, which of my mistakes did you learn from?

And please do not say ALL.

My biggest mistake was going too fast. Then having a poor skimmer. I like Anthonies break down on doing water changes. I think in this thread, maybe another, he mentioned doing water changes really do little for a massive problem like mine unless you can do 100% water changes. I bought 3 large 40 gallon trash cans to make my water now and I will be able to do 100% changes till everything is fine. I will then add fish after everything is back to normal.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:25:39 GMT

Radical,

I feel your pain. Last year a snail got stuck in my overflow, which caused the water level in my sump to drop and my top-off device dumped 5 gallons of kalk into my tank. It was the beginning of the end for my tank and it never recovered from that, even a year later. I have since learned, largely through Anthony's great info, that I've been doing things all wrong for the last 8 years since entering the hobby. I too am slowly rebuilding.

If it is any consolation, I learned from some of your past mistakes discussed earlier in this thread, and it helped tap me into Anthony's recommendations on the subject.

Best wishes,

Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

radicaljbr — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:48:44 GMT

OK....one more correction.

Anthonly did not suggest taking out my DSB. He suggested replacing it.

Sorry....trying to do work and type this at the same time. Can't focus.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

radicaljbr — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:44:34 GMT

Typo....I said I replaced my rock.

I DID NOT

I took it out and scrubed it and then placed it back in. Not sure where my mind was when I wrote that

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

radicaljbr — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:41:22 GMT

WOW.....I started this post back in January and it sure makes me feel better to see other have had problems too. Not that I want people to have problems.

I thought it only proper to give a report on how my tank is doing or should I say not doing. If you read the very beginnings of this thread you might see how ready I was to give this hobby up. Wells things never really changed much.

I think Anthony gives a lot of great advise!!!!

What I did was take all my rock out and completely scrub it all off. I then setup a holding tank for some inverts and corals. I did a 100% water change in the display tank. This was all back in the beginning of the year. I purchased a RO/DI to replace me RO only setup. I left the DSB in place and replaced all my rock. I turned my MHs down to only 1 hour per day.

During all this breaking down I dropped something in my sump while cleaning it out and breaking the bottom. A month later I left the RO/DI running in my holding tank and killed everything. I really lost the will to do anything.

Since then I have left the main tank sitting here in 23 hours of darkness. Snails and crabs are still hanging out and I do have some patches of algea that have cropped up.

I finally got some motivation a few months ago to bring this thing out of darkness. I bought a sheet of cast acrylic and for the last week I have been gluing my replacement sump/fuge together. I purchased an ASM G# which will be housed inside.

Once everything is plumbed back together, I plan on doing another 100% water change at the same time and take out one rock that has some algea and scrub only that one rock. I will continue to leave tank empty with no fish. Also my tank has not been fed one bit since January so the crabs must be working hard to find food as they leave any algea alone.

Depending on the production from my skimmer, I will raise the lights from 1 to 3 hours and gradually bring it back up to 8 hours or so for now. I might decide to get one fish in a few months. Something I could leave alone and not have to feed. A yellow Tang would be nice if it would eat the algea. The one I had before would nibble at it all day.

This week I am putting my baffles in my sump so in about 10 days or so I should have it all plumbed and ready to start over.

As mentioned before, I left my DSB in place. I know Anthony suggested I take it out. I have so many little worms and things living in it that I hated to start over with it.

I guess the biggest suggestion I can give is to go super slow with this hobby. I think my mistake was going too fast and then not reacting fast enough to a problem. So I will be going super slow with restocking this tank.

I will up date my progress as I go along.

Thanks again Anthony for all your help and motivation to keep me around earlier this year.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Mon, 04 Sep 2006 23:45:20 GMT

Hi Anthony,
I hope you had a nice holiday weekend!
The water flows from right to left, i.e. the first compartment the raw overflow water hits is the skimmer pump.
Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Mon, 04 Sep 2006 23:40:07 GMT

which end/compartment does all raw overflow water come into here?

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Sat, 02 Sep 2006 20:16:38 GMT

Hi Anthony,
Here is my new sump. It took me a while. I was hindered by the center brace in my tank stand, and in order to incorporate the features I wanted I had to make two tanks connected by bulkheads. It seems to be working well. The water flows from right to left. All water exiting the skimmer either goes to a DSB in a bucket (in a cabinet to the left of the tank) via powerhead or through carbon in the next chamber over. That chamber also contains the return from the RDSB, the heater, two-part Ca/Alk additive lines from the doser (located in a third cabinet to the right of the tank), and the bulkhead leading to the return pump. I'm still waiting for the RDSB to cycle (its been 2 weeks and nitrate still 5) before putting animals in the tank. The tank still has just live rock and dead sand and no light. Nothing in the skimmer yet.
Robert
P.S. The object to the left of the sump in the third picture is my top-off reservoir.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:51:08 GMT

very much appreciate your sharing from experience and the hard(er) road here, my friend.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

DonJasper — Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:19:52 GMT

RobertK (8/25/2006)

Have not put the <1" of sand in tank yet; I'm worried about the Tunze blowing it away!

Ya know, whenever I find whoever penned the 11th commandment "Thou shalt have sand remain immobile in your tank. Not a single grain shall move. " I'm gunna give them a poke in the nose.

I tried the skimming for months, this weekend going for the complete breakdown and restart. One topic missing from this thread: cutting down on the import of nutrients. Over-feeding - that's my specialty. Ok so I didn't know how prevalent phosphorous is in municipal drinking water, and all my water changes and all that was just fertilizing the algae.

So now the back-in-time note to myself:

Rig up an auto-top off unit right now. You're a clever dude - figure it out. Psst Norvac is the only place in town to get mercury switches. Using it will keep your chemistry (salinity and all that) at least pretending to be consistent.
Listen - everybody adds phosphorous to drinking water - spring the money for a water filter right now. You'll figure out what's the best one. Yes it'll cost $100 or so. That's half of that SeaCrop order that you'll kill.
Rig up a skimmer - forget the needle wheel crap - pickup some basswood at Woodcrafters and use it to make wood airstones. A dollars worth of wood (drilled and capped of course) will be enough to last like 3 or 4 months.
You'll figure out how to attach an radio controlled boat propeller to a powerhead - the trick is 3/16 rigid air tubing: it slips inside the propeller and over the powerhead axel like is was designed for it.
Don't buy anything with claws. Hermit crabs are so mean that they eat each other. Keep an eye on the one with the cracked shell - he'll be the only one to go uneaten. You’ll learn to look until you find him before sticking your hands in the tank. It’s easy – just find the lifeless swath and follow it.

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:15:43 GMT

indeed... please do rest assured that even the worst algae problems can we conquered in a matter of short months if not sooner just my aggressive water flow and aggressive nutrient export (daily skimming and weekly water changes). You scarcely need to lift a finger otherwise... good things will happen in time for it

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:59:02 GMT

Hi Tom,
Thanks for that. I blame it on my children, too. I learned a long time ago that with aquariums bad things can happen fast but good things can take a long time. Also that sometimes I have to do something 2 or 3 times before I get it right! I've also learned (for the umpteenth time) that just because you think you know something doesn't mean you do. I do trust Anthony's advice and am being as patient as I can.
Regards,
Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Caspo — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 06:21:00 GMT

Hi Robert,
Hang in there! I went through the same thing about a year ago. I neglected my tank (minimal water changes) for some time because of new family additions (children ) Not an excuse! And I went through a stage of bubble algae and hair! the tank was a mess.
Try not to put a time frame on things. It's like watching a pot boil. My tank took almost 3 months to get back to no hair and the bubble was even longer. Anthony's advice will work.

Good luck

Tom C

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 01:25:41 GMT

UPDATE

Hi Anthony,

Well, as usual everything is taking longer than I thought to get done, but here is an update of what I've accomplished so far:

- removed everything from the tank and gave it a good cleaning
- put live rock back in tank. Used less of it than before (probably about 35-40 lbs) to leave more room for water circulation through, behind and above rocks (it is not easy to stack rocks in a 15" wide tank without piling it up against the back glass!) Return line directs water lengthwise along the tank behind the rocks.
- added one Tunze stream on the opposite end of the tank from the return line, angled off the front glass back toward the overflow. That thing is huge and ugly in my 70 gallon tank (but better than a swamp, of course) - I'm considering swapping it out for a pair of nanostreams when they are released. Have not put the <1" of sand in tank yet; I'm worried about the Tunze blowing it away!
- built a new sump with a separate chamber for the skimmer pump first in line. Skimmer still not skimming well but there's no animals in the tank yet, so I've got my fingers crossed that it will produce more skimmate once the fish and corals are reintroduced.
- added an RDSB in a bucket. Nitrates currently 5, waiting for them to zero before reintroducing animals.
- all animals safe in backup tank.

Still holding my breath. I'll keep you posted as things progress.

Thanks again for your help,
Robert

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

RobertK — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:17:20 GMT

Will do, Mr. C. All points well taken.
Thanks again!
RK

RE: I am ready to give up!!!

Anthony Calfo — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:58:26 GMT

you are very welcome my friend. It is a labor of love

You have it correct and succinctly summarized too. I'd only add (again) beating a dead horse here to be absolutely sure you have massive, albeit diffused, water flow to keep all solids in suspension as best you can. And... be sure that you dial in that skimmer to make it yield a cup of skimmate daily if you can (and it can be done). Then... with the ramping up of the lights, you will experience a series of algal succession again (everyone does... brown, maybe cyano... then green micro before spurred corallines). But this time I'd expect it to be more modest (other than the initial brown diatoms... they always look worse than they really are.).

If you want to hedge your bets, add an ozonizer into this equation (contrary to what some skimmer mfgs say... they have alterior reasons for this). Ozone is tie tested and true (much in the archives on my opinions about ozone).

And lastly... the little things you can do to be mindful of importing nutrients... know the composition of your tap water, consider DI filtering... using carbon and filter resins in the display is good too... feed small frequent feedings to fishes rather than larger less often portions... never admit thawed pack juice into the aquarium (rocket fuel for nuisance algae!), etc.

do give us a progress report after 4 weeks or so after the lights come back on.

best of luck!