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RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:09:48 GMT

5th batch of larvae doing well at 5 days old now.

Newest vids near the top of the page.

http://www.putfile.com/mr_ugly

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Wed, 31 May 2006 10:25:44 GMT

Ok, thanks for the info and help!

I did daily water changes, but should have changed larger amounts. Difficult to do though. I had an airline tube with some mesh over the end, and the babies were so small that they wanted to get stuck on the siphon. What's the trick to changing water and siphoning debris with such small larvae in the tank? I couldn't tell any phototropic reaction from the larvae, or else I could try to get them to gather to one side while I siphon and clean. Keeping baby discus tanks clean was easier!

The frogfish spawned again on Monday evening. Last night, I set up a 10 gallon tank with an AC 350, live rock, and a DIY kreisel. (Went to bed at 4am. Ugh....) The kreisel has a meshed opening for water exchange with the main tank. I figure I can get some diffusion that way to help maintain water quality. Also, I can do a slow drip of tank water into the kreisel to help flush metabolites through. Or maybe do a Carlsen surge on the 10g, and let the changing water level do periodic water exchange with the kreisel through the meshed opening.

Took some videos of the pre spawning activities and of the egg raft floating around the kreisel. Probably should see some larvae inside the eggs tonight, and should have babies by the weekend.

Thanks!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

FMarini — Wed, 31 May 2006 09:03:08 GMT

ugly-
sorry to hear the first batch went down hill fast.
I suspect you ran into 2 problems. Both readily addressable.
1) water quality for sure, any hint of ammonia in a fry tank is death, you really have to have better control of the water quality- however it is difficult due to the amount of food your adding. So you can do like Anthony mentions and do 100% water changes daily, or connect this fry tank to a larger system, or be more diligent w/ water managment,i.e.,use smaller amts of live food to ensure its eaten, vacuum 50% out daily and replace, etc
2) the fry didn't eat- maybe rotifeers are not sufficent 1st foods or not nutritionally complete, or they didn't eat enough. But I would also consider copepods instead. You might want to email Adelaide rhodes and see what her opinion is for collecting 'pod nauplii. I believe she is still at essentiallylivefeeds.com

Best of luck on batch 2

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

cacique_ccs — Tue, 30 May 2006 15:53:52 GMT

[quote]Mr. Ugly (5/30/2006)

Rothie,

I *was* grinning, but by the 5th and 6th days after hatching, the number of visible larvae decreased. By the 7th day, I could spot onlyan occasional straggler.

Hopefully that can help maintain the water quality for the fry?

Thanks![/quote]

Did you read Anthony Calfo's thread on raising seahorse fry?
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic32531-13-1.aspx
He mentioned daily 100% waterchanges...

Wish you good luck with the following batch.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Rothie — Tue, 30 May 2006 14:53:30 GMT

How sad.My condolances.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Tue, 30 May 2006 13:10:01 GMT

Rothie,

I *was* grinning, but by the 5th and 6th days after hatching, the number of visible larvae decreased. By the 7th day, I could spot only an occasional straggler.

---

Dr. Marini,

Do you think the losses stem from a feeding/nutrition problem, water quality problem, or some other factor? NH3 and NO2 levels were at .5ppm each on day 6 after hatching.

Would any of the following items be usuable for straining copepod nauplii and/or rotifers?

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/4369/cid/1228

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5984/cid/1679

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5933/cid/1681

Should I be looking for smaller type of rotifer to feed?

And the good news... the pair spawned again last night... the 4th time. So I have another chance at raising some babies. I'm thinking to modify the fry container with a meshed opening so that I can put the container into the refugium of my 72g reef. Hopefully that can help maintain the water quality for the fry?

Thanks!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Rothie — Fri, 26 May 2006 16:16:26 GMT

Mr. Ugly-That is some incredible video.You must be grinning from ear to ear everyday.Congratulations!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Fri, 26 May 2006 13:41:14 GMT

Ok, will keep a close watch over the next few days.

Yes, the junk in the tank is rots and some extra phyto. I'll try the experiment this evening. I'll try to get some pics with the digital camera. The macro on the video camera is not good.

I've been using paper coffee filters for the rotifers and pod nauplii. Works for the rots, but don't know about nauplii.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

FMarini — Fri, 26 May 2006 09:23:20 GMT

Okay- I took a look at the video.
The fry are very active and w/ NO yolk sacs. In the next day or so tyou'll find out (the hard way) whether or not these fry are eating sufficiently. The day 10 mark is when structural developments start to occur in fry and if their nutritional requirement is not met during this time the fry to drop off. So keep aware over the next few days.
Next are the fry eating? maybe yes. it appears in the video that you have alot of "junk" in the w/ the fry I assume its phyto and rots? yes- if so you can try a small expt. Shine a flashlight on one side of the container for a few minutes, the rots (which are phototropic) will head there- frequently many fry are also phototropic and swim towards the light as well, once the two "components" are together -watch them, it appears your video camera has enuf magnification to make this work.
Also be aware if they bellys of the fry turn colors. Rots when properly gut loaded w/ phytos have alight green tint to them, the frys abdomen will turn a slight shae after eating lots. This will be more apparent w/ brine nauplii as they are pink
Pod nauplii will require a lot of hoping/praying since i doubt you have any filtering material sufficiently small enuf to retain them. what might help is to use a clean sponge and wipe the glass of your pod culture tank, you collect pods this way, and hopefully nauplii, usually you have to "filter" the pod nauplii, but not sure you have the time.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Fri, 26 May 2006 06:46:37 GMT

Vid from last night. 8th day after spawning. 3rd day after majority of hatching started.

http://media.putfile.com/larvae-8th-day

I couldn't tell if the fry are actually eating the rotifers. I'm paranoid that they've been living off their yolk sacs which appear to be absorbed by now. I'm going to try filtering some pod nauplii for them this morning.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Thu, 25 May 2006 08:57:59 GMT

FMarini (5/24/2006)

Guppies maybe fine, however they will be a last food.

Ok, got it.

FMarini (5/24/2006)

I suspect you'll need rotifers,-BBS nauplii, small shrimp/mysids, fish
the copepods might be the best solution, however it will be difficulting large quantities of pod nauplii sufficiently gut loaded

I have rotifer and pod cultures running right now, courtesy of Reef Nutrition. The pod culture is in a 10 gallon tank which is about 1/3 full. What volume of culture should I be targeting to get a suitable amount of pod nauplii? I can hatch BBS if necessary.

Here's a vid from last night. Free swimming froggie larvae. 7th day since spawning.

Double click on the media player to see the clip full screen. Vid is ~2 minutes long.

http://media.putfile.com/free-swimming-larvae

thanks!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

FMarini — Wed, 24 May 2006 20:11:05 GMT

Guppies maybe fine, however they will be a last food.
I suspect you'll need rotifers,-BBS nauplii, small shrimp/mysids, fish
the copepods might be the best solution, however it will be difficulting large quantities of pod nauplii sufficiently gut loaded

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Wed, 24 May 2006 15:17:02 GMT

Hiya Renee. Glad you liked the vids!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Wed, 24 May 2006 15:15:52 GMT

FMarini (5/24/2006)

Awesome-
thanks for the links.

You're welcome. I'll probably do another video clip this evening.

FMarini (5/24/2006)

1)- I would place a drop or 2 of rotifers in greenwater in this fry dish and visibly watch to see if the fry are gulping down on the rotifers, and /or if they are choking once they engulf them. If they eat one then struggle, i would skip th erots

Sure, I'll give that a shot.

On harvesting rotifers - I'd been refreshing the rotifer culture by straining a portion through a paper coffee filter and feeding it to my reef. I saw a reference to straining through reuseable filters but found that the rotifers passed through the mesh. Here's a url to the type of filter basket:

http://www.hometownstores.com/detail.aspx?ID=75999&ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=Ace%20Hardware&ovcrn=Coffee%20Filter%20Basket&ovtac=CMP

Is there something readily avaiable that would work well? The paper filter method is slow.

FMarini (5/24/2006)

2)-I would do a second experiments w/ copepods nauplii. you know who to collect copepod nauplii right?

Actually, I don't! Though if nauplii are smaller than rotifers, I'm guessing I could pour the pod culture through the reuseable filter to separate the adults, then try to filter out the nauplii on a paper filter?

FMarini (5/24/2006)

2)I would guess from the video that these fry appear large enough to eat rotifers,so I'd try this first. the key is wiggling, giggling. and yes add food now these fry will prolly only last 3 days w/o food

The fry were between 1-2mm.

So if rotifers are too big for them, the progression of feeds would be, nauplii, rotifers, copepods, then small shrimps or something else?

There was a Thaler article recently about saltwater acclimated and bred guppies as suitable long term food for frogfishes. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

seahorsedreams — Wed, 24 May 2006 14:25:04 GMT

Man, I saw those vids over on Grim Reefers.... freaking awesome! I'll be following along to see how it turns out.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

FMarini — Wed, 24 May 2006 13:36:41 GMT

Awesome-
thanks for the links.
I would do 2 experiments, just to see whats going on here. you have plenty of fry to experiment w/
1)- I would place a drop or 2 of rotifers in greenwater in this fry dish and visibly watch to see if the fry are gulping down on the rotifers, and /or if they are choking once they engulf them. If they eat one then struggle, i would skip th erots
2)-I would do a second experiments w/ copepods nauplii. you know who to collect copepod nauplii right?
.
I would guess from the video that these fry appear large enough to eat rotifers,so I'd try this first. the key is wiggling, giggling. and yes add food now these fry will prolly only last 3 days w/o food

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Wed, 24 May 2006 08:58:47 GMT

Dr. Marini,

Thanks for all the previous information.

Just a quick post of urls for a couple new vids. This is the 3rd batch of eggs from the dorehensis pair, 5 days after spawning. The 2 clips were taken 15 hours apart.

http://media.putfile.com/egg-raft-with-larvae

http://media.putfile.com/larvae

Lots of free swimming larvae this morning. I have rotifer and pod cultures now, and have added a small amount of rotifers to the larvae container as of late last night. Perhaps too early to add rotifers? I thought it might be too long to wait until this evening after work.

Any recommendations regarding the babies?

Thanks!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

FMarini — Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:25:47 GMT

ugly- skip ths batch- no way you'll be able to save the fry w/o any LIVE foods. all the stuff your pouring in the tank is useless and adding to pollution. Fish larvae all go for wiggling, jiggling foods, hence why rotifers and nauplii work so well. Phytofest is plant materal and roti-rich is ground up yeast. two NON-foods for fishfry-but wonderful food for bacteria and invertebrates

AS for water quality, do some big time water changes and get the ugly fish back to happy. BTW I too am also a ug fan of ugly, gnarly ish-its just that those 2 anglers are really awefully ugly, not even in a good way. But like all of god creatures, you can always find a mate.

My plan would be to learn about these first foods-called microfoods, then try growing them. Next try to learn the breeding cycle of your fish, next have microfoods available when your fish breed. This first batch is strictly a learning tool for now.
AS for how-to on microfoods-feel free to spend all week reading this stuff
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=d7885ba860219227e1b02d4e063695c6&threadid=135137

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:36:46 GMT

I ran a rigid air tube into a larger tube to use as a kind of air lift bubbler for water circulation. External filter has been turned off. I put a bunch of chaetomorpha from the fuge into the tank. And I added some RotiFeast also.

Going to try to get some video of the larvae.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:51:02 GMT

Dr. Marini, thanks for your help.

Yes, these ugly fishes are my favorite. Frogfishes in general, that is. These particular ones aren't ugly in a cute way like some of the others, though.

I did put the egg raft into a container at the bottom of the tank with a gutter guard lid. And the egg mass had been tumbling around with the water circulation. The eggs have hatched by now, and the remainder of the raft is dissolving.

I can barely see tiny clear fry swimming around. They are maybe 1/2mm in length. (I don't have a microscope.) I had turned off the hang on filter, and ran some air line tubing into the tank for circulation. I don't have any live food prepared. I'm still trying to read and get up to speed on what I should be doing.

I did put some Phytofeast into the tank, and a small amount of Hikari frozen rotifers. I suspect neither of these are appropriate, but I'll find out as soon as I read some more. I'm thinking to stir up some of the water in the refugium on my 72 reef and to put that into the fry tank periodically. Or would dissolving some marine flake food into some tank water be of any benefit for the fry? Either directly as food, or indirectly for growing microorganisms for the fry? It may be that I won't have a food source in time for these babies, and that I'll have to prepare for the next time the fish spawn.

I'm concerned about maintaining the water quality on the fry tank. The 2 adults are still in the tank, and I don't see how do water changes with the babies in the tank. I could remove the adults, but what about water changes?

Thanks!

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

Rothie — Sun, 23 Apr 2006 07:12:15 GMT

Congratulations!That is an incredible video.

RE: Frogfish Spawning Video

FMarini — Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:39:24 GMT

hey- thats has got to be thecoolest video I've seen in a while. BTW those got to be the uglyist fish I have ever seen.

Okay i hope you got the egg raft in some sort of egg tumbler or kriesel whereby the eggs are gently rolling in well oxygenated water.

Thats said, the eggs hatch quickly,in a few days, and the planktonic fry require a smallish first food. While there are a few report of successful spawning of these fish in captivity there are very few to report any success w/ the fry. I suspect the fry are prolly gonna require either the smallest rotifers (b strain) or copepod nauplii. I dont recall when the fry settle out, but the egg tumbler or kriesel will be useful during this time. Once the fry settle they will require more zooplankton-like foods for 3 weeks at which point they become carnviorous,(18-20mm).

Unlike most people who only report gravid females spawning you've got yourself guarenteed fertile spawn. Do you have access to a QX3 or other computer-based microscope-this development is gonna be killer.

I'll look up some old references and report back

Frogfish Spawning Video

Mr. Ugly — Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:45:43 GMT

Hi, I found this forum from one of Marc Daniels' posts on a club forum.

It was completely unexpected, but I was able to catch my frogfish pair spawning and caught part of it on video a couple days ago. I believe the male was able to fertilize the egg raft, and I'm now on a frantic quest to get up to speed on raising fry. Any help, or pointers to info would be greatly appreciated!