Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Disease, Health and Wellness - by Kelly Jedlicki / Puffer diet / Latest Posts

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:24:11 GMT

What aquatic vet did the trimming? Did he use anesthesia? Did he cut or file the teeth?

Did the vet comment on the gum swelling? Was the swelling there before the dental? Did he recommend treatment? Swollen gums can be painful and thus prevent eating. I have seen this before - often seen if the dental plate has been cracked or split or if a piece of food penetrated the gum line.

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:32:50 GMT

I forgot to add - he also tested our water. He said everything was fine. We do 20% water changes once a month unless our tests indicate an earlier change is needed. We test our water weekly. With three aquariums, it can be a lot of work, but we haven't lost any fish in over a year and have had several for a few years. Of course, like with our puffer over the last few days, I'm always finding that I still have a lot to learn.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:24:55 GMT

You're right - it is something else going on. We got his teeth trimmed - they were too long, although the vet doesn't think that's what is making him not eat. Our puffer actually got a pretty clean bill of health. He appears well-nourished, has good body shape, is alert, and his eyes are clear. The only thing that was noted was a slight swelling around his jaw, which may be an infection. He is still able to open and close his jaw now that his teeth are trimmed so lockjaw was pretty much ruled out.

We've brought him back home and he appears to be doing well so far, although we haven't tried feeding him yet. We also got some Selcon to soak his food in. If he doesn't appear to be eating after a couple of days, then we're supposed to give him a penicillin bath once a day for 4 - 6 days.

At this point, I feel like we've dodged a bullet. While we do feed him a varied diet, he still did get a lot of krill. No more. My husband threw it out and we're going to get some more food from the grocery store.

Thanks again.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:50:56 GMT

Hi Kim,

It sounds like you have something else going than we did if you have been feeding a varied diet for a long time. Not to ignore the obvious .... how are the water parameters (Temp, pH, Ammonia, NO3, NO2. etc.)? How often do you do water changes? You know the basic aquarium husbandry stuff.

Other than that I am sure Kelly can often some advice.

Joel

RE: Puffer diet

kim051172 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:46:45 GMT

I am grateful to see this thread. I've had a dogface puffer for about a year now. He does get krill to eat (I was told by the place where I bought him that it was OK); however, after reading up on saltwater fish, I knew a varied diet was best. Because of that, he got frozen krill a few times a week and on other days, he got frozen, shell-on shrimp, crab legs, and mussels - all of which he ate just fine.

A couple of days ago, my husband and I noticed he had stopped eating. At first, we thought that perhaps his teeth had just gotten too large and needed trimmed. After really watching him yesterday and today, though, I'm concerned that it may be lockjaw instead. There is a little space still between his upper and lower teeth, but it seems like he can't open any further. Sometimes he pulls his lips way back, but still nothing happens.

We have an appointment this afternoon with an aquatic vet. I'm hoping he just needs a trim, but am not optimistic. At least it sounds like we can try tube feeding. My husband and I both agree that if he is going to die, at least he won't die without us trying to save him.

Kim

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:39:01 GMT

HOORAY for Puffy and Giggles !!!

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:27:01 GMT

I will !

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:33:27 GMT

Terrific, more great news! It is very cool to hear how similar these animals act. My puffer reacted the same way, with an attitude. "I will try this but I'm not gonna like it!" and then spit it out. Then the next time "Hey thats pretty good" as the water surface erupts into a small volcano.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:21:03 GMT

topdogofca (7/17/2008)

Hi Kelly! Well if you read my post to Joel you know that Giggles ate squid and raw shrimp today! He's active and animated and begging for food. You guys helped me save his life and I actually get choked up thinking of how sick he was. The idea of tube feeding him was so scary at first but I knew it was that or death. And it really wasn't that hard at all. I couldn't have done it without you and Joel. Anyone out there in the same situation don't be afraid. You CAN do it and we're all here to help.

Yeh!!! Thanks for the update and for sharing. Hopefully this will encourage others in this same situation!

Please keep us updated.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:48:34 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:25:19 GMT

More good news today Joel ! I mixed up a batch of food for the other fish and Giggles grabbed a piece of sqid and ate it . Not being his favorite he spit out the second piece. While the rest of the gang gobbled everything up he swam over to me like,"ok where's MINE?" I had a nice raw shrimp thawing out just for him. I soaked it in Garlic Guard and Vita Chem (fish's Shrimp Scampi ! ha!) I tried tempting him with it but he turned it down. Everyone else thought it was great ! about an hour later I defrosted and "marinated" another one and he went for it like it the best thing he ever tasted! Sucess! He's doing great! His entire personality is back to normal and he's back to flirting with me and all the clients. I can't thank you and Kelly enough. I hope others have the same sucess we did.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:04:14 GMT

jtesdall (7/16/2008)

Laura,

That is awesome! I am very excited for you because I know the exact feeling, the rush that comes when he eats Krill or not. Do what you say, be strong and no more Krill. Both the bait and switch and food coloring worked surprisingly well. Although if your puffer has as much personality as ours you see him call you every name in the book when you do it. Keep giving us updates, I am very happy I could help.

Joel

Kelly, maybe we are actually on to something here. It would be great if maybe this is actually reversible. I know this is only two for now (there do seem to be 1 or two others), but lets keep our fingers crossed!

Joel,

I hope this thread will get other hobbyists to share their experiences as well.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:02:57 GMT

topdogofca (7/15/2008)

WONDERFUL news! Giggles ate completely on his own today! I'm very happy and cautiously optimistic. Now comes the the battle to get him to eat something besides Krill. And yes it was Krill that he ate today. I put some in along with clams and squid for the OTHER fish never expecting him to take any of it and BAM! he scarffed it down. Now that I know he is able to eat on his own NOBODY gets anymore Krill untill he is eating other foods. I bought some raw frozen shrimp today and I will try to tempt him with that and just keep trying different things. If I have to I'll tube feed him again but he's not getting any more Krill. Thank you so much for your help! I truely appreciate it and I will keep you updated.

Great news! Thanks for the updates and sharing. This hopefully will educate other hobbyists to prevent this condition and help those that are experiencing this horrible condition.

I hope this thread will have others that will contribute their experiences as well.

Definitely hold off of the krill for the time being.

Please keep us updated.

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:45:33 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:33:09 GMT

I'm so excited ! If you read my post to Kelly you know that Giggles ate completely on his own today after only 4 tube feedings over 6 days along with his daily Reiki treatments. I'm so grateful for your help. I'm sure I would have lost him and now I feel there is hope for his recovery. I'm going to try your raw shrimp treatment (complete with food coloring if I have to) and I'l even try the old "bait and switch" routine that you used !!! thanks jtesdall, I'll keep you posted

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:17:48 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:23:26 GMT

After about two weeks he was taking about 6 ML without any regurgitation in his own tank with no sedation. I always offered shrimp everyday to get him interested in feeding normally. He increasingly started showing more interest and would bite the shrimp and spit it out. So I decided to let him go 2-3 days to get him real hungry. I even tried using food coloring to color the shrimp orange like Krill, this seemed to work although it may have been a coincidence. But he started to eat shrimp. I would buy whole uncooked shell on shrimp at the store and cut it into three pieces. He got to eating this very well so obviously I quit tube feeding. I did not document as I should have but thi8s whole process took about three weeks. Actually the posts in this forum would document it very well as I posted when when I started tube feeding and when he started to eat.

Puffy never showed sign of being very afraid when we had our hands in the aquarium. He has always come out to see us when we came over to the tank. So we have always "pet" him although you aren't supposed to. Because of this he was already pretty tame. We really didn't like the effects of the MS222 since after a day you could still tell he wasn't "right". So I decided I was going to feed him right in the tank after about the fifth sedation. I just put my gloved hand in tank for awhile and went very slowly. I started by first just letting him lay in my hand and then wrapping my hand around him loosely. Then I started to hold him tight enough to restrain him and he puffed but only for a few seconds and then deflated. He didn't struggle much at all so I was easily able to push the feeding tube in for about another week and a half every other day. It really worked very well.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:33:27 GMT

Hi, I was hoping i could ask you a few more questions. Giggles is holding his own and has had his third feeding. I was wondering how long it took for your puffer to get well? I'm assuming from what I read it was almost a month of tube feeding? And how did you attempt doing it without sedation? Did you leave him in the main tank or use a hospital tank during these "unsedated" feedings.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:41:57 GMT

topdogofca (7/9/2008)

Absolutely.

Will these daily sedations have a cumulative effect ? He hasn't been completely "knocked out" but I surely don't want to hurt him with the feeding tube. Should I let him go "under" a little deeper? I'm not worried about him being sedated. I'm worried about his exposure to the clove oil.

Cumulative effect could happen. I would probably skip a day of clove oil/feeding and wait for the Finquel.

Thanks for the updates. Please keep us updated.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:06:15 GMT

Thank you for answering my questions. I was excited to see Giggles go potty today. At least I know he's processing what I fed him and he kept it all down. I fed him again tonight. This time I lowered the dose of clove oil to 10 drops per gal. He seemed to go "under" even quicker than yesterday and I took him out after about 15 sec. fed him and put him in his recovery tank. I'm trying to expose him as little as possible to the clove oil while I wait for the finquel. Am I correct in thinking the least amount of exposure to the clove oil the better? Will these daily sedations have a cumulative effect ? He hasn't been completely "knocked out" but I surely don't want to hurt him with the feeding tube. Should I let him go "under" a little deeper? I'm not worried about him being sedated. I'm worried about his exposure to the clove oil.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:27:45 GMT

jtesdall (7/7/2008)

[quote]topdogofca (7/7/2008)

oh boy! I think I have some more questions to ask before I attempt this. Would it be ok if I sedated him and fed himTHEN put him in the B12 bath to recover? And does he have to be completely knocked out like they are for teeth trimming or can he just be sedated enough to be calm? Also, I'm concerned about how to take him in and out of each tank. Can I just use my gloved hands? I thought I read it was bad to use a net on puffers. Or should I use some type of container? I don't want to risk any of the sedative pouring into the clean bath water so I'd rather use my hands or a net.

I prefer a deeper stage of sedation to prevent trauma to the esophagus and to prevent the inadvertent snapping or breaking of the feeding tube by the puffers teeth.

I always put as much vitamin and mineral source in feedings versus administering via water/bath.

Gloved hands are okay if the fish is sedated and will not puff while out of water. With puffers with spines, I scoop them in a container and pour out the water before putting the puffer in the clean tank.

As above, I prefer deeper versus lighter sedation to prevent trauma to the esophagus if the puffer starts to move during insertion. I have had puffers bite and swallow tubes which can lead to other problems. I do not use nets on my puffers but will use containers with drilled holes or solid containers for capture and transfer. The problem with a net is once they get "worked up" it is often too late.

Another friendly note from my experience; The sedative really makes them disoriented (of course) and was pretty scary for me, so be prepared. I also noticed the effects lasted for a few days, although Kelly (who has vastly more experience) only noticed a very short duration of effects. Of course we both used MS222 and you will be using Clove oil. I would recommend leaving him in the hospital tank for awhile, mine really bumped into things when I went back to his main tank too quickly. Make sure to keep temps the same

I wondered throughout if this was all a waste of time, but it was well worth it. I hope you find the same.

Disorientation should be noted when induction of anesthesia and for several minutes after anesthesia. Lingering effects - longer than an hour is not the norm. If there are lingering effects need to look at pH of the solution and oxygen content and dose of the finquel.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:12:19 GMT

topdogofca (7/7/2008)

I have a 1 gal. bowl for sedation and a small bucket for recovery (I think it's about 3 gal. ) And I have an air pump made for a 5 to 10 gal. tank. is it ok?

Both are okay - just make sure both are well aerated.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:11:27 GMT

topdogofca (7/7/2008)

oh boy! I think I have some more questions to ask before I attempt this. Would it be ok if I sedated him and fed him THEN put him in the B12 bath to recover? And does he have to be completely knocked out like they are for teeth trimming or can he just be sedated enough to be calm? Also, I'm concerned about how to take him in and out of each tank. Can I just use my gloved hands? I thought I read it was bad to use a net on puffers. Or should I use some type of container? I don't want to risk any of the sedative pouring into the clean bath water so I'd rather use my hands or a net.

Porcupine puffers are in the diodon family. They have two fused dental plates which do not require dentistry. The arothrons (dog face puffers) are in the tetraodon family which have four fused dental plates which forms a beak - this group often requires dentistry.

For dentistry - they definitely need to be knocked out for their safety as well as the hobbyist.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:07:16 GMT

topdogofca (7/7/2008)

Hooray! I did it! I got the tubing from my vet (the red one) . Couldn't find the Finquel anywhere so I used the clove oil. I used 14 drops in a little more than a gallon of water. It affected him IMMEDIATELY. As soon as his tail and fins relaxed I pulled him out (less than 30sec. ) gave him his food and put him into his recovery tank. It only took 2or3 min. for him to get back to normal but I left him in for about 20 min. I know this is only a baby step toward his recovery but I'm trying to be optimistic.

Here are some sources for finquel - MS 222. I would recommend having it on hand.

http://www.seahorsesource.com/medications.html

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12271

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:02:21 GMT

topdogofca (7/7/2008)

I fed him 2mil. Only the tiniest bit came out. I added the B12 to the food, not the water. I used the smallest half of a 1000 mcg tablet. then I added some Vita Chem, squid, chopped clams, mega marine and a dash of phyto plankton. I checked his little belly and it had a tiny little pouch. I didn't want to overdo it so I think I'll wait a bit to add more.

Great - Congrats!

Adding B12 go the food is better than adding it to the water as you are assured that the fish gets a good dose. Vitamin B12 is water soluble so what the fish doesn't need it will excrete/urinate out....I would give at least 500 mcg.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:31:49 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:18:01 GMT

Congratulations! How much did you feed? Did he regurgitate any? It is normal if he did a little.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:17:31 GMT

I did it Kelly. I was so nervous but everything went perfectly. You can read the reply I wrote to jtesdal. I used the clove oil and boy did it work quick. I am going to use less next time. I fed him 2mil. and he kept it all down.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:05:16 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:53:43 GMT

THANK YOU.

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:31:32 GMT

topdogofca (7/7/2008)

Personally I would say if you are going to put B12 in the tube feeding mixture then skip the B12 bath (Kelly?). From what I understand you do not want to completely sedate, I know I did not. And again, after two or three times I went without sedation because he was so tame. I used a net from the main tank to sedative and my gloved hands from sedative to hospital (recuperation) tank. Mine would puff up during these activities but would shortly go back to normal. The first time I tried it without sedative he puffed but the subsequent 7-8 times he did not. I think a net is fine as long as he doesn't get too worked up. (again Kelly?)

Another friendly note from my experience; The sedative really makes them disoriented (of course) and was pretty scary for me, so be prepared. I also noticed the effects lasted for a few days, although Kelly (who has vastly more experience) only noticed a very short duration of effects. Of course we both used MS222 and you will be using Clove oil. I would recommend leaving him in the hospital tank for awhile, mine really bumped into things when I went back to his main tank too quickly. Make sure to keep temps the same

I wondered throughout if this was all a waste of time, but it was well worth it. I hope you find the same.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:20:47 GMT

I have a 1 gal. bowl for sedation and a small bucket for recovery (I think it's about 3 gal. ) And I have an air pump made for a 5 to 10 gal. tank. is it ok?

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:13:34 GMT

oh boy! I think I have some more questions to ask before I attempt this. Would it be ok if I sedated him and fed him THEN put him in the B12 bath to recover? And does he have to be completely knocked out like they are for teeth trimming or can he just be sedated enough to be calm? Also, I'm concerned about how to take him in and out of each tank. Can I just use my gloved hands? I thought I read it was bad to use a net on puffers. Or should I use some type of container? I don't want to risk any of the sedative pouring into the clean bath water so I'd rather use my hands or a net.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 07:54:06 GMT

Definitely mark the tube with a permanent marker and/or a piece of tape. Some human feeding tubes especially the ones for neonates have number indicators/markers.....only problem is if you are nervous or forgetful or both....one may forget what number one is to insert the tube to....don't laugh, I have had this issue both in my medical career as well as my fish hobby.

RE: Puffer diet

jtesdall — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:50:30 GMT

You didn't mention a second tank for a plain tank water bath to do your feedins. I am sure that is your plan, but just in case, make sure to have a 5 or 10 gallon aquarium with plain tank water to put him into after sedation for the feeding and recuperation. Also in case you missed it in all the posts, it works very well to draw a line on the tube so you know how far down to put the tube during feeding, enough to just go past the gills, right Kelly.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:22:40 GMT

topdogofca (7/6/2008)

I don't know the brand names just this minute because my computer is here at home and the tank and food is at the shop . It's food I bought at the local pet fish store. I've never tried buying it from the grocery store. Didn't know if it was as good as food specifically packaged for fish.

The food is not marked/packaged for fish consumption.....it is human food and it is usually less expensive than that marketed for our aquariums.

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:21:05 GMT

topdogofca (7/6/2008)

Hi, thanks for asking. My plan is to go to my vet tomorrow and see if she can give me some of the tubing. If I can't get it there I will try our local pharmacy/hospital supply store. I have my syringe, a bucket, some clove oil, my B12 tablets, rubber gloves, air pump, tubing and air stone. I also have plenty of varied foods to mix up along with Vita Chem and Im going to add a touch of a plankton supplement I got from Sweeden. I'm going to mix up a B12 bath, let him soak for an hour then add the clove oil and tube feed him. What do you think? ( Kelly, if your reading this I'd love your input too.) Today I tried to see if maybe he would let me put some food in his mouth with just the syringe. He's pretty tame and usually takes food from my hand. But he didn't like being held even though I used a light touch and he started to puff up. I squirted some in his mouth anyway but I don't know if he swallowed any. laura

The key to getting the puffer over this is to get food in with the least amount of stress. If the puffer gets stressed or puffs, there is a high chance of regurgitation.

I would definitely use anesthesia....my choice is MS 222. If you use clove oil, do be very careful as the oil can coat the gills and has caused suffocation and anoxic brain injury in many fish.

If you do use clove oil, I would not mix anything else in that bath water.

Keep us updated. Best of luck.

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:09:54 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

topdogofca — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:56:31 GMT

RE: Puffer diet

Puffer Queen — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 05:31:50 GMT

topdogofca (7/5/2008)

Thanks so much for getting back to me. I've had Giggles for about 6mos. He's about 5-6 inches. I feed six different types of frozen foods (not freeze dried) but all he ever ate was the krill and I didn't know it was bad for him. laura

What are brand/type of frozen food?

Have you tried squid or shrimp from your grocery store or local asian market?