Marine Depot Forums / TEAM Marine Depot / Disease, Health and Wellness - by Kelly Jedlicki / Ich / Latest Posts

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:55:24 GMT

Michael,

Bare bottom tank will work. Moving the live rock out before draining may be an option. Maybe if you feed before you start to remove the rock, they will not be in the rock.

Best of luck. Please update.

RE: Ich

nukeproof — Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:05:39 GMT

A couple of questions. I was going to use Calfo's suggestion on draining the tank to catch all my fish. First, I have a bare bottom tank so will it still work? Second, what if the fish are still hiding inside the rock after I drain the tank?

Patrick

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:21:13 GMT

Randypandy,

Ich is a parasite that lives on anything wet. It is introduced into a tank when anything wet is introduced. Ich requires a fish host to complete its life cycle. So in a tank without fish for 4-6 weeks, the ich parasite will die off.

To prevent it from being introduced into your display tank, you quarantine anything wet for a minimum of 4 weeks.

Please read my initial post in this thread as well as Steve Pro's article on Quarantining:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

RE: Ich

randypandy — Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:30:02 GMT

how do you prevent ich from starting or does it just happen.

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Mon, 06 Feb 2006 04:07:41 GMT

Nukeproof,

Here is a good link/thread on catching fish/inverts out of the display tank: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=707656

Here is a great article on setting up quarantine tanks by Steve Pro: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

The air driven sponge filter needs to be in the display tank running for a couple weeks. Some hobbyists have used the bacterial additive products in their tanks. I have never used any of them so I can not comment. Do you have any filter media, bioballs, etc already on your display tank that you could use?

I would not bother hooking up the protein skimmer as its effeciency/production will diminish/stop with hyposalinity.

Best of luck. Keep us updated.

RE: Ich

nukeproof — Sun, 05 Feb 2006 22:08:27 GMT

Kelly,

Thanks. I am borrowing some tanks for the quarantine. I got a 50 and 40 lined up and making salt water at this point. I borrowed a fish trap from a friend. I am confident on catching the tangs, the clowns and the angel. However, I am not so sure on the anthias and the wrasses. Any advice. Also, how long should I leave the new sponge filter in my system before I could use it in the quarantine tank? Should I hook up a protein skimmer?

Patrick

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:15:18 GMT

Nukeproof,

Definitely need to quarantine in the future.

For the problem now - you need to move all fish to a separate hospital/quarantine tank. The live rock, corals and inverts stay in the display system. This tank should stay fallow (fishless) for at least 4 weeks.

In the hospital/QT you need to start hyposalinity treatment for at least 4 weeks. Keep it bare bottom, with some plastic pipes/PVC pieces for the fish to hide in and feel safe. Add some sort of filtration - air driven sponge that has ALREADY been cycled from the display tank or media placed in a hang on the back filter. Make sure this tank has good water movement and aeration as the parasites can affect the gills and stress increases the need for oxygen. DO NOT USE live rock as the hyposalinity will kill the microfauna and cause poor water conditions.

Monitor water parameters at least daily. Frequent water changes will be needed. Watch the pH as hyposalinity can drop the pH - be prepared to add buffer as needed.

Again welcome. Please update.

Enrich the diet with vitamins, beta glucan and garlic to help boost the immune system so the fish can overcome this infestation and avoid secondary opportunistic pathogens.

RE: Ich

nukeproof — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 23:12:35 GMT

My luck finally ran out. I got a Solar Wrasse as my last fish for my new 200 gallon. It got ich and never acclimated well. It die after a week. I got another and it is doing good now. However, 2 weeks ago my Powder Blue and Regal started to show signs of ich. I've been feeding Spectrum Pellets w/ antiparasitic formula and soaked my frozen food with Kent garlic extract. The Regal got better last week but the Powder Blue still has it. Today, I see signs of ich on 2 of my Anthias and my clowns. I hate to remove all my fishes to treat them but will do if I have to. Any advice to get around this? Guess I need to quarantine from now on.

I always did 25 gallon water changes every 7 -10 days. I have auto top off with Litermeter III and had kept my salinity around 1.025. I've been lowering it a little to 1.023. I have barebottom tank and have good water movement (Eheim 1262 on SS for return, 2 Tunze 6000 and 2 Seio 820. H&S Skimmer. My tank has the following fishes: 1 Powder Blue, 1 Regal, 1 Yellow Tang, 1 Flame Angel, 3 Barlettes (sp?), 3 Chromis, 2 False Perc, 1 Mystery Wrasse, and 1 Solar Wrasse. For inverts, I have 1 Diadema, 1 Tuxedo Urchin, 10 Turbo, 1 Hermit, and 3 Cleaner Shrimp. The tank is 8 foot but only 20 inch high. Got lots of rocks and lots of corals.

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:18:18 GMT

Rasbobre,

Welcome to MarineDepot.com and this forum !

RE: Ich

rasbobre — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:14:41 GMT

Interesting approach Bojan. I too look forward to your information.

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:10:55 GMT

Thanks Bojan!

When you can, please post/update when you get more information.

I'm very interested in this method.

RE: Ich

Bojan — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 05:27:35 GMT

I supopose that there is no article about this method. One year ago , when my friend Mark reported success with this method on our local forum www.sloreef.com (Slovenian language) I searched on the net and literature, but I did not find any report, discussion or articele about this method.

I do not invent this method, acctually I have never used this method, because last year I never had "ICH" problem , but I read many reports on our local forum and I saw result of this method in our local store and in the aquarium of my friends. So , I am quite sure that method work great in according to my opinion is the best "Reef safe" method. Only copper is more effective, but you all know negative effects of copper treatmant.

Acctually this method is the most popular "ICH" treatmant in Slovenia and we have many reports, so I will ask my friend Mark again to write samo article about this method in English language.

Description of the method

In any case method is very simple. I suggets you to test this method. You only need aquarium full of bubbles , what is easy implement with air pumps or venturi.

Reports

I will try to collect reports of the Bubble Method "Ich" treatment and translate in English language.

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:45:12 GMT

Bojan,

Is there any articles/literature available on this method ?

How long does the bubble treatment last?

I am having a hard time understanding/accepting that this method could elimate/kill the parasite. Please post any further information on this method. Sharing/learning is what this forum/site is for.

Thanks for sharing this method.

RE: Ich

Bojan — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:39:21 GMT

In our country Slovenia is very popular method for treating "marine ich" so called Bubble method. This method is invented (or first time presented in Slovenia) by Slovenie aquarist Mark. I do not know , if this method is used also in other countries, but what I heard and what I see this is one of the best methods for treating "marine ich"

Fish can be be treated in display tank(big advantage od this method) or in a separate hospital tank.

The basic idea is that display tank or hospital tank is full of bubbles, what destroy/ eliminate/reduce the parazites.

Heavy aeration with many air pumps or power heads is used to fill the tank with bubbles.

Method works great.

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:43:40 GMT

Madphatboy2,

I am not aware of "fake ich". Adult trophonts do drop off the fish as part of their life cycle but they do not attach and fall in 30 - 60 minutes. Where are the spots you see? Could it be possible that it is sand or detritus that has been stirred/blown on the fish? It has been theorized that fish can develop immunity to ich, but this does not seem to be ich immunity.

RE: Ich

madphatboy2 — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:34:29 GMT

I've noticed that when something changes and stress is added, they get the Ich spots and then about 30-60 minutes they go away. It usually happens to my goby only. Is this like a "fake" sort of Ich? Or is there an ammunity that the little fish has?

RE: Ich

Steven Pro — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 06:53:02 GMT

There has been some research done on garlic and its application to treat fish disease, but nothing specifically on its use against Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

RE: Ich

twkenny — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 05:58:17 GMT

Hi Kelly,

Excellent summation of procedures.

I do have one question though. You list garlic in your list of supplements. I totally agree with the vitamins, but can you explain the garlic? I see it as more of a stimulant to aid an ailing appetite. I'm curious if there has been any research done that you are aware of regarding the use of garlic in treating ich.

Thanks!

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:31:32 GMT

Thanks Steven for the comprehensive list of articles!

RE: Ich

Steven Pro — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:39:43 GMT

Here is a collection of articles on this subject:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:15:44 GMT

Sarahsmile,

Four weeks quarantine is the standard. Usually, ich will show up before then if the salinity is within normal seawater. If ich develops while the fish is in quarantine, treat with hyposalinity OR copper. Once the last spot has gone, then the quarantine period starts over ( 4 additional weeks).

I am more obsessive than many hobbyists, and will quarantine everything for 8 weeks.

RE: Ich

sarahsmile — Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:17:58 GMT

How long does it take ich to show up on a new fish? Is 4 weeks in quarantine long enough?

RE: Ich

Puffer Queen — Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:29:50 GMT

Hi Mark,

Wow - let's get the forum off with a bang I do not mean to insult anyone's intellligence, but this forum is for all levels of the hobby - beginner to advanced. So my reply will be basic for some, but hopefully a refresher for all!

Too often than not, a fish, invert, live rock, etc is not quarantined properly and is added directly to the display tank - introducing all kinds of opportunistic pathogens.

Certain fish are definitely more susceptible to marine ich (crytocaryon irritans) such as the tangs and puffers

A common thread you will hear, "my fish was doing fine for a couple of weeks & all of a sudden white spots appeared". The spots can often appear after there has been a change in the tank (a stressor) such as sudden water parameter changes (change in pH, alkalinity, ammonia, ORP, temperature), new tank mate added, mating/courting, aggressive substrate vacuuming or tank redecoration. Chronic stress (stress that goes on for a prolonged period of time - days - wweeks - months but doesn't acutely cause behavioral changes in the fish). Examples of this would be chronic suboptimal water quality (chronic low oxygen levels, ORP or pH), inappropriate or tainted/spoiled food, unwitnessed aggressive tendencies or inappropriate tank mates. These chronic conditions put strain on the fish's immune system where once it was able to fight off the pathogen/parasite, now becomes infected.

In order to understand the parasite, one must understand the life cycle of the parasite. When one sees the actual white spots, that is the adult often referred to as trophonts. These will mature and encapsulate themselves and fall off of the fish to the floor/substrate. The encapsulated cysts are now called tomonts. Tomonts will divide/multiply into small ciliated (hairlike) organisms. They are now called tomites. Tomites swarm the tank looking for new hosts (fish). This parasite bores into the mucosa of the skin, fins, and gills and then continues its life as a trophont.....and the circle of life continues. This process takes several days so often hobbyists will see spots "come and go". The ich is not gone but merely entering a new cycle and multiplying.

Symptoms besides the white spots include:

1. scratching and eradic/frantic swimming(fish trying to rid itself of the boring pest).

2. increased or heavy breathing, with the fish tending to stay at the water surace, close to water return pipes/powerheads or in airstone bubbles (parasite in gills affecting respirations).

3. increased mucous production (slime).

4. eye cloudiness (especially with puffers).

When left untreated, this parasite infestation can lead to other secondary opportunistic infections - bacterial infections like fin rot, red patches, ulcerations.

The display tank is infected with the parasite. If the fish has a strong immune system, the fish has a chance (I am not a betting person so don't ask me to place odds or chances) of overcoming the infestation. With that being said, the constant presence of the parasite and reinfection until (if ever) the fish develops an immunity/resistance can cause chronic stress and the fish can become victim to something else (bacterial, fungal or worm infestation.) Adding new fish at this point, even if they have now been properly quarantined , to this system is risky. They too will be exposed and they will surely become infested.

To rid the tank of the parasite:

I would recommend removing ALL of the fish and place in a separate bare bottom quarantine tank. By removing the fish, the parasite does not have a host to complete its life cycle. The tank will have to remain fallow (fishless) for a minimum of 4 weeks, I prefer 8 weeks. Another option would be to treat the main tank with copper. I do not recommend this especially if this is a reef, one with liverock or substrate. Copper will KILL inverts, corals and the micro fauna on the live rock. Substrate will leach/absorb the copper and the therapeutic treatment levels needed to cure/rid the parasite will not be achieved. There are many advertised/marketed "reef safe" ich cures - I don't recommend them. If you visist enough sites, talk to enough hobbyists, you will find those that highly recommend these products and then others that have had miserable or disastrous results....this is true about every aspect of life and science. I do not gamble when it comes to the life of an animal, fish or human.

What to do for the fish:

All the fish need to be treated in a separate quarantine/hospital tank.

*Hyposalinity (S.G. 1.009 - measured with a refractometer at least daily) for a minimum of 4 weeks. The parasite can not live in hyposalinity.

* The tank needs to be bare bottom (no substrate) with hiding spots for the fish. Hiding spots should be things that can be sterilized after each use - pvc pipe/couplings or those plastic caves/decorations used in freshwater tanks.

* There should be some source of biological filtration. I prefer air driven sponge filters that can be cycled or maintained in your display system's sump or a sponge or bioballs in a HOB (hang on the back filter). Both of these can be quickly removed from the display system and added to the QT.

* Additional aeration (air stone or power head pointed from the bottom of the tank to surface) will also be needed as these fish are stressed and this causes an increase demand for oxygen.

*Another option is to treat with copper in the quarantine/hospital tank. Copper has been proven as an affective treatment. Copper too is an irritant and fish breeders have found it to affect fertility. Copper kills inverts, algaes, corals. Some fish (scale-less fish, elasmobranchs) are very sensitive to copper and do not do well. If you use copper, in addition to the other water parameters, you must monitor the copper levels daily to prevent toxicity as well as subtherapeutic levels (low) as both extremes will affect the outcome/cure.

Whether you choose hyposalinity or copper treatment, you must monitor the water parameters in the tank at least daily as pH, ammonia and nitrite levels can change rapidly. This causes additional stress which can affect the success of cure. Frequent water changes and the addition of buffer to maintain pH are required.

Improving the fish's immune system will also help. You can do this by the addition of beta glucan, vitamins and garlic to the fish's diet daily while in treatment.

Watch closely for secondary infections as mentioned above. Antibiotics may need to be added. I would not recommend treating with antibiotics prophylactically or "just in case" as this can add stress or lead to a drug resistant pathogens.

Don't like these proven methods of cure- The only other option is to break down the tank & start over.

Wow - I now have writer's cramp and this is just the "reader's digest version"

Everyone still awake?

Best possible advice - Quarantine everything, you won't regret it!

Ich

Mark — Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:37:11 GMT

Hi Kelly,

Fodder for discussion (based on real events):

Let's assume, as happens more often than not, a fish is introduced into a stocked reef tank without following recommended or proper quarantining procedures. For the sake of this discussion, make it a Paracanthurus hepatus (Hippo Tang). A week or two later, shortly after rocks were rearranged and detrius was siphoned from the tank, a number of small white spots appear on the gills and fins of the fish. The fish doesn't appear to be too bothered by them, but after doing some reading, I'm convinced it is an external parasite of some sort, possibly Ich (but I don't really know). What would you suggest I do at this point?

- Mark